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I am very scared of the vegan movement, they will try to take our right away to have companion animals.

Gemini75 said:
I disagree. The Vegans on this forum are most likely part of "Zeta" a German based pro zoo group. Seems the "vegans" that post on this forum are also associated with them and are promoting their views. Tying zoo interests with veganism is something they do a lot.
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You totally made this up. None of the vegans who participated actively in this discussion even come from Germany.
 
Note, @Tailo is not really a vegan, but I think that he is kind of like me, a reducitarian-minded westerner that shares many of the concerns of vegans about unethical agricultural practices but does not necessarily condemn a "perfect world scenario" of ethical care and rearing of livestock plus humane methods of slaughter. Considering that we could not realistically guarantee that every animal really gets treated with dignity, then the vegans are kind of right about the fact that that scenario is really highly unlikely in industrialized agriculture where the animals in question are regarded as absolutely fungible, and agricultural workers are probably treated even worse than the animals, meaning that some of the animals probably have to take the heat from the frustrated workers.

Pardon me if I am putting too many words in your mouth, @Tailo, but after my conversation with @SkawdtDawg, that is where I am on it, and I have decided that it is time to start opting in vegetarian foods and stop pretending that we are really living in an idyllic and wholesome Neolithic society where all the little sheep are cared for by a tenderhearted shepherd, never so much as yelled at, and slaughtered based on a centuries old ritualized tradition. I could swallow that. That would taste alright on my fork. The industrial slaughterhouses are mechanized assembly line infernos by human standards, and that is probably the best and most comfortable part of the lives of these animals. Pretending that that situation is not really terrifying for them constitutes a level of dementalization that I really cannot altogether swallow.

I am not declaring myself to be vegan just because I am not willing to turn a blind eye to the shortcomings of our system of industrial agriculture. We have gone astray from the beliefs of our primitive ancestors that started the practice of animal husbandry. We have thrown those beliefs under the bus in the name of profit motive. I don't see meat as inherently evil, but the things we are doing are really not okay. It doesn't make me a vegan to acknowledge that.

Maybe if we forced the commercial agribusiness industry to adopt morally sane standards, then we would stop wasting time on getting good lab meat on the shelves and actually start giving the businesses that specialize in it the same subsidies as any agribusiness. Once we have developed a good lab meat and it is getting appropriate subsidies and the costs of production are coming down rather than going up, then we will not have to continue having this discussion anymore.
 
HyperWoof said:
"It's always bad. But it's worse when there is no need to do it. There is a difference--species like wolves need to eat them or they will starve. Humans don't. Maybe they kill them out of kindness."

Does it matter to the deer who it gets eaten by? Does it matter to conservation? A dead deer is a dead deer. If it gets eaten that's all it matters. If I harvest a deer then guess what...i'm not buying meats from a grocery store for a good long while.

"Great. Let's do things like hiking that doesn't kill animals unless when killing them is in their best interest."


Yeah that's not how human interest works.


Really, now you don't believe that I didn't have a cell phone until just a few years ago? I didn't need one and got along without one just fine. But now industries have changed. I didn't know about the exploitation involved in making cell phones back then and going back to the stone age isn't at all reasonable or necessary. The problem isn't with cell phones; it's the way they're made. No career is going to force me to eat meat. That's ridiculous.

Animal agriculture will never be acceptable, no matter how good it is. Cell phones can be made in better ways. There is no good way to raise animals and then kill them

No of course I don't buy that, every adult has a phone other than the rare outlier.
Now you DO know about the exploitation, and you're saying "it's not reasonable to go back now blah blah" Then why is it reasonable for an omnivore to go to a vegan diet? It's literally the same logic.

You're also dodging the question by playing it off as if it was a realistically possible scenario that a job would force you to eat meat. It's a question of IF. And if you're true to your own principles you wouldn't take that job because you think eating meat is wrong. Now you know that cell phone sales benefit companies that oppress their workers to the point they need to install suicide nets onto their buildings to prevent workers from killing themselves. What are you going to do about it?

They don't benefit off of slave labor. You're blowing this way out of proportion. You're not even using logic at this point.

You're right in that i'm blowing this out of proportion, but that's the entire vegan argument. So enjoy a bit of your own medicine


Right, so you're doing all the harm that you're criticizing me for, AND you're killing animals on top of it. So, what are you doing to stop slave labor related to your cell phone and clothes? You say that's an issue caused by other people's greed, not your own. Yet, you claim it's directly my fault.

I am using your own logic against you. You claim I am supporting the cruelty of animals by hunting and eating meat. Well you're supporting slavery by buying cell phones and working for companies that save money by purchasing uniforms made by sweatshops. Either go on and mind your own business over what you and others eat, or accept that you're a proselytizing hypocrite
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My biggest question is how many vegans have seen deer STARVING because the population has exploded beyond what the area can sustain? How many deer are sick and disease ridden because we (as humans) have killed or chased off their " natural preditors" ( i used quotes because we are ALL part of the food chain). I have seen this, it is heart wrenching. So I have absolutely zero problem with human hunting, as long as the animal will be used for food. My opinion is and always be the world needs balance tipping the scales one way or another will bring disaster. I also have no problem with raising animals humanely and using them as a food source. I am an omnivore and proud of it.
 
If you want the FACTS on nutrition
....the latest INDEPENDENT science....studies....and statistics.
Check out nutritionfacts.org.
Dr. MICHAEL GREGER presents it mostly in short video clips relating to the subject matter you put in the search window.
For some other great wisdom off Netflix.....check out these great documentaries...preferably watch them in this order.
1-FORKS OVER KNIVES
2-WHAT THE HEALTH
3-THE GAME CHANGERS
4-COWSPIRACY
5-FAT, SICK, NEARLY DEAD
I have been vegan since 1990......I can personally tell you the way I feel and look is light night and day!!
I was sick often growing up....dealt with asthma....psoriasis....colds....flus.
All gone within weeks!! I never get colds of flus!
I personally know a couple of people who beat cancer.....no chemo....no radiation!
Just by going raw vegan (which has the greatest impact!)
As for the Bible.....it was written by many different people....with different opinions who wrote books that were assembled together. There is plenty of pro vegan scripture in there....2 off the top of my head....Genesis of course and the book of Daniel. Add to that the many translations and editing....and you have what you have today.
Go on YouTube too! There are many great documentaries.....seminars...programs...interviews with doctors...scientists and nutrition experts that TRULY know their stuff!!
Use logic....our digestive system is EXACTLY that of the Great Apes....gorillas....orangutans....bonobos....chimpanzees.
The only ones who aren't 100% plant eater are chimps....of which only some of them eat small monkeys.....otherwise 98% plant eater.
If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.
 
Buster2020 said:
If you want the FACTS on nutrition
....the latest INDEPENDENT science....studies....and statistics.
Check out nutritionfacts.org.
Dr. MICHAEL GREGER presents it mostly in short video clips relating to the subject matter you put in the search window.
For some other great wisdom off Netflix.....check out these great documentaries...preferably watch them in this order.
1-FORKS OVER KNIVES
2-WHAT THE HEALTH
3-THE GAME CHANGERS
4-COWSPIRACY
5-FAT, SICK, NEARLY DEAD
I have been vegan since 1990......I can personally tell you the way I feel and look is light night and day!!
I was sick often growing up....dealt with asthma....psoriasis....colds....flus.
All gone within weeks!! I never get colds of flus!
I personally know a couple of people who beat cancer.....no chemo....no radiation!
Just by going raw vegan (which has the greatest impact!)
As for the Bible.....it was written by many different people....with different opinions who wrote books that were assembled together. There is plenty of pro vegan scripture in there....2 off the top of my head....Genesis of course and the book of Daniel. Add to that the many translations and editing....and you have what you have today.
Go on YouTube too! There are many great documentaries.....seminars...programs...interviews with doctors...scientists and nutrition experts that TRULY know their stuff!!
Use logic....our digestive system is EXACTLY that of the Great Apes....gorillas....orangutans....bonobos....chimpanzees.
The only ones who aren't 100% plant eater are chimps....of which only some of them eat small monkeys.....otherwise 98% plant eater.
If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.
Click to expand...

Lol no. Veganism is malnutrition.
 
We have a lot of vegetarians and vegans using the foodbank. The foodbank people were happy to offload the cans of stewed steak, pasta with mince etc on me. even the amount of tinned tuna baffled me. Vegans can try and take my ESA dog away, i will fight them.... ehh protest them of the lot.
 
Of course animal agriculture (beef, pork, chicken, fish, etc) are in a panic and will use any method to counter THE FACTS!
By cherry picking and lying.
I have been on both sides of the fence....most have not.
The two main gentlemen in the documentary were raised on beef and dairy farms....their families owned for generations!
One a scientist....the other a heart surgeon.
Why would they turn their backs on industries that put money in the bank for their families?
Because the science, statistics and studies are irrefutable.
Look.....at one time cigarettes were marketed by doctors to the public!
In 1964 the Surgeon General of the USA stated that tobacco is a carcinogen.
Anybody wanna debate that one?
 
Buster2020 said:
You can fix ignorance....you can't fix stupid.
The brilliance of life is that the stupid ones remove themselves leaving space for smarter ones.
One of Darwin's Theories.
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Vegans tend to deteriote quickly.

Id rather be MD. Shawn baker that MD. Michael gregor. No debate.
 
ZTHorse said:
Doubt it.

No native multi-generational population have ever been vegan. Ever.

The longest lived people are the sardinians and they literally eat fermented cheese killed from a baby goats stomach.

Animal products are human nutrition.
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Again....cherry picking. Sardinia is one of many BLUE ZONES....along with Okinawa and other locations.
The common denominator is that they eat PLENTY of fresh raw vegetables and are VERY active. Low stress....contentment....a sense of community.....the pursuit of happiness.
Body....mind.....soul....all of it MUST be attended to and respected.
As for your dead goat shit.....no.
 
Buster2020 said:
I personally know a couple of people who beat cancer.....no chemo....no radiation!
Just by going raw vegan (which has the greatest impact!)
Click to expand...
Did you know Steve Jobs tried something like that?
Did you know Steve Jobs died?

Use logic....our digestive system is EXACTLY that of the Great Apes....gorillas....orangutans....bonobos....chimpanzees.
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I'm sorry, using actual logic, you would actually need to prove this claim first. Can you prove our digestive system is exactly like all those primates combined?

I have been vegan since 1990......I can personally tell you the way I feel and look is light night and day!!
I was sick often growing up....dealt with asthma....psoriasis....colds....flus.
All gone within weeks!! I never get colds of flus!
Click to expand...
Ok, do you know how the scientific method works? This is a single anecdote from an uneducated observer. If you want to get any meaningful conclusion beyond a correlation, you will repeat this experiment a few hundred times at least and compare it with a control group that doesn't do the experiment. Even then, you could, if the results were positive, only draw the conclusion that something affects you positively somehow. And then you still haven't verified if it could be because of other vegan related behavior that could perhaps emerge from it.

But I digress, the study has been done already, here is the UK's NHS article on it. Here is the scientific paper in question I believe

Excerpt:
Conclusions:
Our study has shown that Austrian adults who consume a vegetarian diet are less healthy (in terms of cancer, allergies, and mental health disorders), have a lower quality of life, and also require more medical treatment. Therefore, a continued strong public health program for Austria is required in order to reduce the health risk due to nutritional factors. Moreover, our results emphasize the necessity of further studies in Austria, for a more in-depth analysis of the health effects of different dietary habits.
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Psoriasis? Sounds like allergies.
Mental health? Yeah, your posts do seem quite unhinged.

And not getting colds or flus? Nice myth, everyone gets them. You can't become immune to them because they mutate over time to novel ways your body doesn't have antibodies for.

Likely conclusion based on this all using FACTS and LOGIC? If you did in fact get less sick, you were either allergic to some component in your old diet, or your old diet was so piss poor that going full vegan actually forced you to eat more healthy than you did previously. Shame it didn't do anything for your mental health.
 
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Oily said:
Did you know Steve Jobs tried something like that?
Did you know Steve Jobs died?
Click to expand...
Veganism didn't kill Steve Jobs.....50% genetics....50% environmental influence (obviously including diet).
He was likely past the point of no return considering the years of abuse to his diet.
By the way.....even with a genetic disposition to a disease or condition....it can be avoided by a plant'based diet provided it's done sooner rather than later.....unlike Steve Jobs.
Too little too late.
 
Buster2020 said:
Veganism didn't kill Steve Jobs.....50% genetics....50% environmental influence (obviously including diet).
He was likely past the point of no return considering the years of abuse to his diet.
By the way.....even with a genetic disposition to a disease or condition....it can be avoided by a plant'based diet provided it's done sooner rather than later.....unlike Steve Jobs.
Too little too late.
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Didn't take you to respond so soon. I added more to my post, would be cool if you addressed that.
Also you just basically admitted that his vegan diet was very much of influence in his disposition to survive his pancreatic cancer.

I can safely say that it didn't increase it.

Despite his diagnosis, Jobs resisted his doctors' recommendations for medical intervention for nine months,[160] instead relying on alternative medicine to thwart the disease. According to Harvard researcher Ramzi Amri, his choice of alternative treatment "led to an unnecessarily early death". Other doctors agree that Jobs's diet was insufficient to address his disease. However, cancer researcher and alternative medicine critic David Gorski wrote that "it's impossible to know whether and by how much he might have decreased his chances of surviving his cancer through his flirtation with woo. My best guess was that Jobs probably only modestly decreased his chances of survival, if that."[161] Barrie R. Cassileth, the chief of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center's integrative medicine department,[162] said, "Jobs's faith in alternative medicine likely cost him his life.... He had the only kind of pancreatic cancer that is treatable and curable.... He essentially committed suicide."[163] According to Jobs's biographer, Walter Isaacson, "for nine months he refused to undergo surgery for his pancreatic cancer – a decision he later regretted as his health declined".[164] "Instead, he tried a vegan diet, acupuncture, herbal remedies, and other treatments he found online, and even consulted a psychic. He was also influenced by a doctor who ran a clinic that advised juice fasts, bowel cleansings and other unproven approaches, before finally having surgery in July 2004."[165] He eventually underwent a pancreaticoduodenectomy (or "Whipple procedure") in July 2004, that appeared to remove the tumor successfully.[166][167] Jobs did not receive chemotherapy or radiation therapy.[158][168]
Click to expand...
 
Oily said:
Didn't take you to respond so soon. I added more to my post, would be cool if you addressed that.
Also you just basically admitted that his vegan diet was very much of influence in his disposition to survive his pancreatic cancer.

I can safely say that it didn't increase it.
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No....you misunderstood....a vegan diet definitely has a positive influence on health....ideally being raised exclusively on a plant based diet is the ideal.
If you have the genetic disposition to a certain disease or diseases.....a plant-based diet is the armour to prevent it from showing up.
Steve Jobs was past the point of no return. Once you have the disease it's still worth a shot!! There have been many cases where it has been successful!!
I personally know someone who was successful. He had bladder cancer....no chemo....no radiation. Just went raw vegan for the greatest impact!
Plant foods are medicine.....corpses are poison to the human body.
 
Buster2020 said:
No....you misunderstood....a vegan diet definitely has a positive influence on health....ideally being raised exclusively on a plant based diet is the ideal.
If you have the genetic disposition to a certain disease or diseases.....a plant-based diet is the armour to prevent it from showing up.
Steve Jobs was past the point of no return. Once you have the disease it's still worth a shot!! There have been many cases where it has been successful!!
I personally know someone who was successful. He had bladder cancer....no chemo....no radiation. Just went raw vegan for the greatest impact!
Plant foods are medicine.....corpses are poison to the human body.
Click to expand...

If Jobs was past the point of return, he wouldn't have lived for 7 more years after the surgery.
It seems you are also ignoring the scientific article I linked, and you are coming up with no proper evidence but choose to rely on your own (biased) anecdotes to "prove" it. That's not how science works. That's not how discussions work. That's not how good arguments are made.
 
Oily said:
If Jobs was past the point of return, he wouldn't have lived for 7 more years after the surgery.
It seems you are also ignoring the scientific article I linked, and you are coming up with no proper evidence but choose to rely on your own (biased) anecdotes to "prove" it. That's not how science works. That's not how discussions work. That's not how good arguments are made.
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Surgery obviously helped....I'm sure changing his diet did too....but from what I recall he did start to eat fish again.
If you want wisdom go to nutritionfacts.org
Plenty of case studies....science and statistics.
Look.....I've been on both sides of the fence myself....I can honestly tell you.....it's MUCH better on this side!
 
Radical vegan/PETA type people are disturbed in the head. If veganism works best for you, go for it; and Im all for ethical treatment of animals, but seriously, chill tf out. They absolute would outlaw pet & livestock ownership if they could. And all consumption of meat. And they would ban all animal population control too. But apparently they are allowed to 'euthanize' all the animals they want. Extremists of pretty much any leaning are a problem.
 
Buster2020 said:
Again....cherry picking. Sardinia is one of many BLUE ZONES....along with Okinawa and other locations.
The common denominator is that they eat PLENTY of fresh raw vegetables and are VERY active. Low stress....contentment....a sense of community.....the pursuit of happiness.
Body....mind.....soul....all of it MUST be attended to and respected.
As for your dead goat shit.....no.
Click to expand...

All of them, NOT VEGAN.


https://www.sardiniafooddistrict.com/en/goat-milk-cheese/9-cazu-de-crabittu.html - because doing this is so vegan. Lol @ u.

"it will remind you how people once lived, managing to create extraordinary products out of utter misery." The sardinians ate this for centuries and lived long for it.

I win.
 
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ZTHorse said:
All of them, NOT VEGAN.


https://www.sardiniafooddistrict.com/en/goat-milk-cheese/9-cazu-de-crabittu.html - because doing this is so vegan. Lol @ u.

"it will remind you how people once lived, managing to create extraordinary products out of utter misery." The sardinians ate this for centuries and lived long for it.

I win.
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There are some things you are not addressing. You have to remember it's QUALITY of life not only QUANTITY of life.
There is a possibility of many health ailments like osteoporosis and arthritis due to a diet rich in dairy.
I'm sure this "food" was not contributing factor to their longevity as much as the plant foods were....which were likely in greater portions. Plus the fact they were very active people etc....
Try a little experiment......go eat that goat shit as much as you want for a year or two....see how you feel....get your blood work done.... cholesterol etc.
 
Buster2020 said:
There are some things you are not addressing. You have to remember it's QUALITY of life not only QUANTITY of life.
There is a possibility of many health ailments like osteoporosis and arthritis due to a diet rich in dairy.
I'm sure this "food" was not contributing factor to their longevity as much as the plant foods were....which were likely in greater portions. Plus the fact they were very active people etc....
Try a little experiment......go eat that goat shit as much as you want for a year or two....see how you feel....get your blood work done.... cholesterol etc.
Click to expand...

Wrong. The sardinians were living long lives for centuries before that recent study. They ate the most brutal animal products that you can imagine.

Also weston price proved that there is NO VEGAN populations ever to survive generations. The inuit ate ONLY animal products and so did he when he stayed with them. He lived to his 80s when the average lifespan of his contemporaries was 40-50s.

Checkmate.
 
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ZTHorse said:
Wrong. The sardinians were living long lives for centuries before that recent study. They ate the most brutal animal products that you can imagine.

Also winston price proved that there is NO VEGAN populations ever to survive generations. The inuit ate ONLY animal products and so did he when he stayed with them. He lived to his 80s when the average lifespan of his contemporaries was 40-50s.

Checkmate.
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The Inuit had and still have rampant osteoporosis and other ailments.
Some Hindus and Jains diets were at vegetarian for centuries. Some tribes in Africa too.
Sardinians genetics plays a part....like I said....it's 50/50....genetics/environmental (diet). Like I said QUALITY not only QUANTITY of life matters.
Bottom line....I go with my personal experiences and the science of today.
Win! Win!
 
Buster2020 said:
The Inuit had and still have rampant osteoporosis and other ailments.
Some Hindus and Jains diets were at vegetarian for centuries. Some tribes in Africa too.
Sardinians genetics plays a part....like I said....it's 50/50....genetics/environmental (diet). Like I said QUALITY not only QUANTITY of life matters.
Bottom line....I go with my personal experiences and the science of today.
Win! Win!
Click to expand...

VEGETARIAN is NOT VEGAN. You still eat eggs, milk and cheese and get by ok.

"Scientists believe it's one of the world's healthiest patterns of eating, and can protect against a lot of chronic diseases. ... And yet despite the fact that the high-fat Arctic diet may sound like a heart attack waiting to happen, the Inuit tend to have low rates of heart disease and diabetes."

Better than the standard american diet still.

justmeat.co

Just meat.

Carnivorous eating, paleolithic ketogenic diet and medicine, and zero carb lifestyle. Don’t bother with vegetables. Just eat meat.
justmeat.co justmeat.co

Double win.
 
ZTHorse said:
VEGETARIAN is NOT VEGAN. You still eat eggs, milk and cheese and get by ok.

justmeat.co

Just meat.

Carnivorous eating, paleolithic ketogenic diet and medicine, and zero carb lifestyle. Don’t bother with vegetables. Just eat meat.
justmeat.co justmeat.co

Double win.
Click to expand...
The science agrees with me....not you.
So does my real life experiences.
Keep calm and continue as you are.....one day if you're lucky you might be able to text from the hospital....hopefully not terminal.
 

Oh so you admit that vegan athletes need to suppliment? (Aka protien powders)

How is that not a deficient diet.

Lol.


Body builder jon venus no longer vegan.
 
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