Cultural acceptance of bestiality is inevitable

[Hewflungpew]

Its inevitable in the same way that I will be president!

Y'all want a country boy for President that dosent give 2 shits about scociety right!

 

[BlueBeard]

Right on the nose. I am repeating a couple things because I agree so strongly with them.

... There are zoos on here that come on here with an attitude that they are doing something "taboo" and "naughty," and in their heads, they are mingling with other people that are as shameful as they themselves are. They have a very negative outlook on other zoos, they really hate other zoos, and they also deeply hate themselves.

Well said. They themselves think what they're doing is wrong.

That is exactly what I see and am so conflicted about. On the one hand, I'm saying, "Where else *should* they be?" On the other, "Man, this is hurting us.

If some of us could talk more openly with non-zoos, then I am convinced that the zooey community would start internalizing healthier social norms.

And there's my dilemma. I wish we could. But it's so frickin' dangerous. I know it's mostly just hot air, people in their responses to news articles about some couple getting busted for beast porn (which I think in itself makes them candidates for the Darwin awards). You see in the comments, "Poor puppies! You people who fuck animals should have your entrails ripped out and be left to die a long, slow death!" And "Line up all the animal fuckers in front of a trench and shoot them." When you see those, you tend to keep your mouth closed.

Plus there's the reactions we've gotten when we even slightly risked bringing it up. "Okay, here goes. These people are telling us about some pretty kinky kinks. We *might* be able to broach the topic if we just mention the idea *some* people...."

Bam! They act like they're going to puke, get red-faced and angry. And then there's the "kill them all" spiel again.

It's so bad that, at a "lifestyle resort" we belong to, fully confident that across the way from us, that mastiff bitch is getting close with her owner every night, we can't say anything. The rules of the camp are "everything is fine here -- except incest and bestiality." Ouch. But still, we just KNOW that's going on. We overheard a woman the next morning who'd been a sex party guest in that house the night before talking about having her nipples liked by the dog, how good it was, "nipples and... other places."

Yet we keep our mouths shut. Too risky. We're considered to be a "nice couple" there. Real friendly. So "normal." Perfect opportunity, then, to drop our guards. Nope, can't do it.

@BlueBeard, I would say that we need more insightful discussion, not less.

Nodding vigorously. Agreed. *This* we can do. We should do.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

@BlueBeard, there are majority non-zoo subcultures in society where there has been mixed success. The furry community is an example of a non-zoo subculture where, in some specific enclaves, zoos can get along pretty well with non-zoos, but I would warn you, with the furries, beware of venues that are focused on vanilla pornography. In the furry community, I have noticed that we only fit in with the seemingly opposite extremes.

A) at venues where people are strongly discouraged to be sexually focused at all or in any way "edgy," you get the benefit of accountability. Essentially, if someone has a problem with what you do in your private time, there is only so far they can go before they become accountable under more strict rules for decorum.

B) at venues where people are encouraged to explore bizarre or dark or deranged ideas, you can get away with being a zoo because you just fit in with the general basket of deplorables...that's all that is there.

I prefer the first one, where there are just such high standards for decorum that those high standards really protect you most of the time. The problem with just hanging out with general deplorables is that if you keep on doing so, then you eventually get to where people think you are just a different aspect of the same thing, just a person that gets off on anything, literally anything, extreme or taboo.

C) wherever you find a lot of vanilla pornography and relatively low accountability, you end up with a community that is subject to vigilante majoritarian policing. Basically, if the only people even trying to suggest there ought to be standards are egotist vigilante trolls, then that is precisely what you ought to expect without exception. If it doesn't give THEM a boner, then they go straight from "jerking off mode" to "witch-hunting mob mode" without much in-between. What that always leads to is ultimately the limited rules they have being "Everything is allowed except YOU," that being whatever people they take the most pleasure in bullying and baiting...BECAUSE THEY ARE SUCK ASS HUMAN BEINGS. They gravitate toward low accountability venues, and if they see you as "too edgy" and therefore a threat to their little shit hole, they get nasty. The words "everything is allowed" always translates to "everything is allowed as long as I can keep my dick hard."

Overall, though, furries tend to be zooey friendly as long as you choose to err on the sides of communities where higher standards of public decorum are expected. You could also hang out in the "basket of deplorables" section where there is a strong "set it all on fire" attitude toward any attempt to get humans behave better than rabid beasts, but while you might find plenty of people that will let you talk about the joys of animal sex, you won't get much luck reaching out to mainstream society. Anytime you venture away from the "back of the bus," the best thing to do is march your ass right to the front.

I am betting it is the same in other subcultures that might be zooey friendly. For instance, I have heard that @Aluzky is an advocate of veganism, and I know that @SkawdtDawg is an advocate of veganism. And others like @Zoo50. I think that vegans who are also zoos could start making inroads in the vegan communities by pointing out to vegans that society persecutes zoos for the same reasons why they persecute animals, because they don't believe that animals ever should have any rights and because they will never accept animals getting treated like something besides mindless dementalized chattel. They ought to start pointing out that the dementalization of animals that makes them think that animals are mindlessly and stupidly obedient is intrinsically connected with the dementalization that helps people justify killing them for food. That might not be what YOU think, but zoos who are also vegans are saying stuff to the same effect.

We have enclaves that can be developed if we will be patient and not push our allies to do more than they are ready to do and keep the conversation going about how bullying in other parts of society really affect us. If we focused on venues where we fit in rather than railing against ones where we don't, then we could become the linchpin of a future coalition.

But in my experience, again, the one theme that I have noticed is this: higher standards of decorum are your friend, not your enemy. Whenever a community has higher standards for what they consider to be acceptable behavior, then in cases where you do get bullied, you can do something about it...although only as long as you are upholding that standard of behavior in both the letter and the spirit. Higher standards almost always means you get more chances to prove that you are not just some mindless rabble but someone that is otherwise a lawful person. Show you can be a model citizen where it counts, and they will stand up for you where it counts.

 

[BlueBeard]

Right. The Enumclaw guy was a Boeing engineer with, if I remember right, a high security clearance. Bet he had "high standards." Be hard to bully him. Easy to push around a stable mucking hand, but a Boeing engineer? Certainly there would be people who would take a step back, think... "But you can't have a defective mind and get 'that far,' can you? Must put down my stones a moment, instead of throwing them. Learn more."

'Cept, he was so scared about being found out, died.

I always wondered about that group, if the others in it were of similar "status," or level of achievement. Be interesting to know more about them. But that was already so long ago now (2005). Bet many no longer think of it when you say "Enumclaw." And Enumclaw probably prefers it stays that way. Hard to live that kind of celebrity down.

Yes, we need to adopt and maintain "higher standards" of behavior. Otherwise, prejudices stay right where they are. No incentive to question them.

And I like the way you've grouped the general types of communities, their constituency and rules. So, in regard to *this* community, Zooville, is it really kind of like a city with different neighborhoods? It isn't just one place. There's room for most people of the zoo spectrum but it's got "zoning laws," so to speak?

If so, I wonder if that's the perception visitors and lurkers get right away, if that dawns on them.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

Right. The Enumclaw guy was a Boeing engineer with, if I remember right, a high security clearance. Bet he had "high standards." Be hard to bully him. Easy to push around a stable mucking hand, but a Boeing engineer? Certainly there would be people who would take a step back, think... "But you can't have a defective mind and get 'that far,' can you? Must put down my stones a moment, instead of throwing them. Learn more."

'Cept, he was so scared about being found out, died.

I always wondered about that group, if the others in it were of similar "status," or level of achievement. Be interesting to know more about them. But that was already so long ago now (2005). Bet many no longer think of it when you say "Enumclaw." And Enumclaw probably prefers it stays that way. Hard to live that kind of celebrity down.

Yes, we need to adopt and maintain "higher standards" of behavior. Otherwise, prejudices stay right where they are. No incentive to question them.

There are many zoos that work in computer science fields.

I was not talking as much about occupational standing, though, but I am talking about venues for social discussion. I am talking about "third place" settings. You can be homeless, and you can still hang out at a venue where people expect high behavioral standards.

I have made this work. I just took the focus off of my sexuality and let vicious punks hang themselves by their own hands. Eventually, people noticed that I was not really there to evangelize about the joys of animal sex, but I was more interested in the things that brought us together and which we had in common. I was not about to change what I did when I got at home, on my own time, but what mattered and which deserved to be central were the things that united us. I can occasionally refer, in passing, to the fact that I am also a zooey rights activist. That is just not the primary reason that I am there, and I do not think that it should be.

The benefit of being at a venue where people are not encouraged to talk continuously about almost nothing but sex is that if you also are not, then that puts you on the same level as everybody else. You also have a private life that you mention obliquely once in a while, and so do they.

 

[Aluzky]

Bestiality will never be accepted. The sooner we realize this, the better off we'll be.

Drawing attention to the zoo community through "activism" has only hurt us, and it will continue to do so in the long run.

Same thing closeted gays said about gay sex being illegal and that gay sex would never be accepted. And look at now, they even can legally marry in many places. Gay sex is no longer illegal in most of the world.

If gays can do that, why can't zoos do the same thing? We ain't that different from the homosexuals, we are a sexual orientation, who sexual encounters are between consenting adults. All the requirement needed to be accepted at there. It is just a matter of educating the ignorants about zoosexuaity and consensual zoosex. And also educating teens through sexual education classes about zoosexuality. Well, specifically, educating them that there are dozens of sexual orientation and that intolerance of them is not acceptable, no need to mention zoosexuality or homosexuality to educate tolerance of sexual minorities.

 

[BlueBeard]

Ah! I see.

Okay, so speaking of "real life," then, not online venues this time, reflecting on that a moment, I guess we actually do go a little further than I made it out to be.

Oh, we don't say we're activists or even zoos ourselves (that part I do online, actually a lot in other forums that are not specifically for zoo but might have a taboo room -- and that's mostly me, since my wife doesn't do sites like these anymore).

But when someone says, "Oh that makes me sick to my stomach," in real life settings, we might pursue it as a topic a few exchanges more. Ask, "Oh? Why's that?" We don't argue. We just let them know it doesn't turn us off.

Just a pause. Just a moment to reflect on it.

But not if there's hostility. Well, not usually. If someone says, "He should be shot," we might raise an eyebrow, ask, "You'd put a man to death who had sex with a dog? Isn't that a bit extreme?" But not push it further.

Stays within the "private life" boundaries. Of course, really doesn't come up *that* often in conversations.

So there's an example of not denying we are zoo, but not pushing it in someone's face. Just letting them know that the couple they see before them, the happy, cheerful, fun folk whose company they are enjoying, is *not* appalled by interspecies sex. It gives them a chance to ask, "Huh. What am I missing? What's not accounted for? Is *my* perception of what a "bestialist" is... off? Short of the mark? Could *these* people be into it?... Need to think a moment."

That's it.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

@Aluzky

Be sure to read Revolt of the Homosexual where the writer talked about how gay people ought to take their queue from emancipated African-Americans. NOT ONLY did he say, "if they can do it, we can do it," but be sure to read the whole thing, he talks about how the African-Americans were very conscious that their separation from society was never really their idea. They were doing everything they could to try to fit in with all other free men, and they were working to try to end segregation. The way it was originally written in Revolt of the Homosexual is better than how I am saying it.

And I think that we also ought to look to the marijuana legalization movement. What finally worked was that pot smokers promoted an idea that there was a RIGHT way to use marijuana. They promoted the idea that there was a GOOD way to use marijuana.

Maybe we could start making inroads with sexologists, for instance, and in some states that have anti-zoo laws, we can get special permits to have sexual relations with our partners, without fear of legal repercussions, as long as we remain under the care of a sexologist that monitors our behavior and discusses acceptable ethical standards with us. This is what worked in California for marijuana legalization. Potheads were eventually allowed to use marijuana as long as they were under the care of a doctor, and after a while, this made the inroads that were necessary for legalizing recreational marijuana as its users had clearly absorbed and normalized safe and responsible patterns of behavior surrounding its use.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

But when someone says, "Oh that makes me sick to my stomach," in real life settings, we might pursue it as a topic a few exchanges more. Ask, "Oh? Why's that?" We don't argue. We just let them know it doesn't turn us off.

I would not even say that. I tell people, "I have no intention of evangelizing my beliefs to you or trying to pressure you to believe them, but they are not the same beliefs as yours. If you want to know about my beliefs, I am willing to share them, but do not assume that only people that agree with you are allowed to exist. I am a zoo. I will talk about this openly with other zoos and zooey allies."

The thing is, that really is what exposes the most intolerable punks. The most intolerable punks, who want to create a dictatorship where they can demand control over what thinking is acceptable and what thinking is not, are always the ones that break ranks with decent people, and there can be no better advertisement for what my whole point is: "our real enemies are not decent people that disagree with us, but our real enemies are trash that cannot let well enough alone."

 

[TogglesHappyZoo]

Oh man. I hope that wasn't directed at anything *I* said. If it were, I hope you'll reread what I wrote, maybe reconsider?

I'm not "in the shadows." And I do appreciate the risk others take on all of our behalf. But surely, you understand, we don't all have the luxury of risking just our own lives. To draw the attention of the community upon "us" actually draws it upon our loved ones, our families, and the community itself.

Identify what you have determined is "shit," please, to make sure we know who pissed you off, who your ire is directed at.

This was not directed at you, but rather toward several people above you.

Here's a quote from Teddy Roosevelt that more eloquently expresses what I feel:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

 

[BlueBeard]

This was not directed at you, but rather toward several people above you.

Here's a quote from Teddy Roosevelt that more eloquently expresses what I feel:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Thank you, TogglesHappyZoo... I was worried I'd offended you, and offending you would cause me great pain. I value you and the work you do, immensely.

 

[SpaceDragon]

I myself believe we can make a difference primarily by not letting ourselves get overwhelmed thinking about the difficulty of achieving the farthest of far away goals such as removing all the anti-zoo laws and changing the minds of the entire country, long term thinking like that can demoralize us very easily. Instead we should keep a general idea of what our long term goals are but not overthink them, and focus the majority of our mental energy on smaller more easily achievable goals, learn from our inevitable mistakes and losses along the way, never let them make us give up, and take what victories we do make and celebrate and move on to the next goals, all in a babystep process to where we ultimately want to be.

I'm also curious what we as a community have done already to achieve our goals?

 

[BlueBeard]

I'm also curious what we as a community have done already to achieve our goals?

By *my* count?

1. We exist! That's fuckin' huge in and of itself!!!
2. We have covered a massive terrain in our dialog, bringing many divergent perspectives into coalition.
3. We have offered safe sanctuary to novices, newly-discovereds, and questionings.
4. We are a community where it's safe to just come and hang out.
5. We are the catalyst of friendship-building, coalition-building, and ... positive influence.
6. We are the interface between those, the non-zoos, who truly want to understand us, and the vast reality of who we are, by personal uniqueness, difference, and variety.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

Well, I was talking to @TogglesHappyZoo, and he was talking about trying to develop some of our inroads in the furry community on his next trip to Anthrocon. I think that the vegans are one prospective subculture that could be brought to our side, also. While I am not fully vegan at this point in my life, what I will give to vegans is that some of them might engage in less dementalization of animals, and that dementalization is actually a part of why a lot of people are willing to turn a blind eye to abuses against animals.

I think the most approachable goal is to develop a constellation of hangouts, both online and face-to-face, where we and non-zoos can mingle together, with this not being an absolutely taboo topic. I think it would be nice, for instance, if there were a couple of local bars, in some of the larger metro areas, where one brave zoo came out to the other regulars, and they realized, arguing with this person is a waste of time and also cruel, and they eventually made it a subject of drunken humor. Maybe there could be a group of people that do improv theater that have a couple of members that are out to them as zoos. Maybe someday there will be some workplaces that are known to be zoo friendly, and managers there would protect anybody that chooses to wear their zeta pins while at work. But also online hangouts.

I think that mixed zooey and non-zooey social venues could be very powerful.

 

[BlueBeard]

Well, I was talking to @TogglesHappyZoo, and he was talking about trying to develop some of our inroads in the furry community on his next trip to Anthrocon. I think that the vegans are one prospective subculture that could be brought to our side, also.

I think the most approachable goal is to develop a constellation of hangouts, both online and face-to-face, where we and non-zoos can mingle together, with this not being an absolutely taboo topic. I think it would be nice, for instance, if there were a couple of local bars, in some of the larger metro areas, where one brave zoo came out to the other regulars, and they realized, arguing with this person is a waste of time and also cruel, and they eventually made it a subject of drunken humor. Maybe there could be a group of people that do improv theater that have a couple of members that are out to them as zoos. Maybe someday there will be some workplaces that are known to be zoo friendly, and managers there would protect anybody that chooses to wear their zeta pins while at work. But also online hangouts.

I think that mixed zooey and non-zooey social venues could be very powerful.

I think I was at first resistant to your multi-subcultural, sexuality approach. But no, you're ahead of me. I'm starting to catch up. You are correct.

The very FIRST thing the "anti-culture" needs to get "over" is that "orientations" -- fuck it, say this as well, that penises and vaginas and assholes and orgasms are "evil" is to show them they aren't evil.

If the penis is no more sacred or immoral than the index finger, ear or nose, and the vagina is just another part of the human anatomy, what's left to demonize?

And if these body parts aren't evil in and of themselves, then... who really gives a fuck what you do? Dress up in an animal suit. Play out your animal connection. Screw your friend, or friend dressed in a horse suit or an actual horse. What's the difference?

ALL orientations, all sexualities, all inclinations, all... well, everything. They're valid.

What's NOT valid is... baseless condemnation of the activities. Baseless condemnation of the orientations or inclinations. Baseless condemnation of variance.

Either base the condemnation *on* something, or back the hell off. And guess what? Since the DSM IV, Americans, at least, have nothing to base their condemnations on. There's no such thing as insanity. And the only thing that interests your counselor is, are you comfortable being who you are?

Come here. We'll help you get comfortable.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

@BlueBeard, the truth is that us zoos have a variety of different beliefs, and that is not anything that I would ever want to change about us, either. Some of us fight like wildcats because there is really not all that much that some of us have in common with each other. It would help the vegans on here if they could just say to us other zoos, "Yeah, I am a vegan, and I feel very passionately about it," but then they could vent the "passionate" part of that at vegan activism events with other vegans that they like and trust. And they could say to their vegan friends, "I'm a zooey activist, too, by the way." Not a single one of us is any one thing at a time. We are many things.

I mean you care about your gun rights. I am not going to lie: I think guns are idiotic, sorry. I grew up around them, and I moved far away from them very fast at my first opportunity. However, if you could find a good group of friends at your favorite shooting range or other gun-related hangout that you trusted well enough to talk about the fact that you are a zoo, that would just be one more thing they knew about you.

Maybe the vegans, all by themselves, and your friends at the shooting range (or whatever it is you do), all by themselves, would be natural enemies, but we zoos could become the brokerers of a peace between people that really needn't escalate their differences of opinion. We could act as a linchpin that binds together groups of people that otherwise would never get along or try having empathy toward each other.

 

[BlueBeard]

@BlueBeard, the truth is that us zoos have a variety of different beliefs, and that is not anything that I would ever want to change about us, either. Some of us fight like wildcats because there is really not all that much that some of us have in common with each other. It would help the vegans on here if they could just say to us other zoos, "Yeah, I am a vegan, and I feel very passionately about it," but then they could vent the "passionate" part of that at vegan activism events with other vegans that they like and trust. And they could say to their vegan friends, "I'm a zooey activist, too, by the way." Not a single one of us is any one thing at a time. We are many things.

I mean you care about your gun rights. I am not going to lie: I think guns are idiotic, sorry. I grew up around them, and I moved far away from them very fast at my first opportunity. However, if you could find a good group of friends at your favorite shooting range or other gun-related hangout that you trusted well enough to talk about the fact that you are a zoo, that would just be one more thing they knew about you.

Maybe the vegans, all by themselves, and your friends at the shooting range (or whatever it is you do), all by themselves, would be natural enemies, but we zoos could become the brokerers of a peace between people that really needn't escalate their differences of opinion. We could act as a linchpin that binds together groups of people that otherwise would never get along or try having empathy toward each other.

 

[BlueBeard]

Gun rights? Oh, good gawd. There's way more divergence than that. I absolutely HATE the Chicken Littles and their global warming bullshit. Human contribution accounts for 0.037% of greenhouse gases, which are mostly carbon dioxide that comes from natural earth processes. If you completely STOPPED human contribution to greenhouse gases, you could not stop global warming, a trend that was already in place prior to the industrial revolution. You would only continue to hurt 3rd world countries, who are not allowed to "catch up to" modern civilization because all the sudden we imposed moratoriums on electrical generations systems............

But shhh.......... That's not a zoo concern. I mean, it *is* the concern of many zoos, but not *because* they are zoo. We have to be careful about what divides us. So... I never go after gun control, global warming, health care systems, nuclear arms race, slaughter-less meat fallacies.... in "here."

That's for other forums. Might touch upon them in passing, but not going to dredge them out in here.

 

[Indyfitnerd]

Zoo will absolutely never be accepted on a social level. We can't even, as a whole, accept interracial relationships, and sexualize the whole bbc/white girl interaction. For the record, I'm all for equal consensual love regardless of race, gender, species, or family relationship lol.... my fetishes are pretty extreme, and half of what I love about them is that they are so taboo... if zoo wasn't considered taboo I don't think as many people would partake in it honestly. Im also VERY open about my fetishes, but if it only takes someone to stand up for it, then I will totally cheer anyone on that posts their face pic as a profile pic and openly post about it on Facebook and Instagram. I'll be your biggest cheerleader, while staying completely anonymous lol

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

@BlueBeard

And that is PRECISELY my point. We don't have to agree about everything and shouldn't have to. One of us can figure out that the other is overall an educated, open-minded, in general perfectly decent human being. That is the main take-home.

 

[BlueBeard]

@BlueBeard

And that is PRECISELY my point. We don't have to agree about everything and shouldn't have to. One of us can figure out that the other is overall an educated, open-minded, in general perfectly decent human being. That is the main take-home.

Sir, the hardest lesson for me to learn EVER, was when a college prof told another student that I had a problem realizing other educated people could arrive at an opinion different from my own.

I was devastated. How could *I* be so bigoted.

But.... I was.

 

[BlueBeard]

Okay. Now I'm following you.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

@BlueBeard

Speaking of education, are you familiar with the Latin phrase, Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres?

 

[SpaceDragon]

I think one of our first goals as a community should be to clean up our image in the wider society, where ever the public can see us they should see otherwise decent law-abiding people who are not a threat to society and are not creepy sex freaks. One small way I wonder if we can do this is I've noticed that there are profile pics here that are sexual in nature, many of which are literally pictures of genitals. I think making those kind of profile pics against the rules could make non-zoos that visit this forum less inclined to see us as sex obsessed in addition to already thinking we are creepy, therefor making us appear to be the kind of normal people that we want to be seen as.

Personally I have no problem whatsoever with sexual/nude pics like that and I think those things shouldn't be taboo, but this is more about improving our image among non-zoos than doing only what makes us comfortable, and I think this forum can be a big first step into bringing our community into public view and contemplation.

 

[SpaceDragon]

Another more larger goal I think we should pursue, is something I've seen SigmatoZeta I think it was mention before about a well funded organization dedicated to protecting people's constitutional rights to privacy and due process. Many of the horrible situations some zoos find themselves in are where no evidence has been shown they have done anything illegal, but someone simply made accusations (many times completely made up) against them that they had, and the police take their word for granted and seize their pets and arrest them anyway, and many times the pets themselves end up murdered for whatever inconceivable inhumane non-heroic reason. And even if the accusations are disproved, these zoos end up gaining a negative social reputation and become targets for harassment and spying.

An organization like this could protect zoos and their animal "property" from legal punishment for evidence free accusations and it can help them fight back against the harassment and spying that happens as a result of negative publicity.

And the best part is that this organization would protect the constitutional rights of all Americans EQUALLY, not just zoos, and so it could gain much more public support and funding than an organization focused specifically on zoo and/or animal rights.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

@SpaceDragon

And the best part is that there are already such organizations. We just have to start volunteering our time and resources to supporting them, which it is already open and perfectly socially acceptable to do.

 

[SpaceDragon]

One more issue I'd like to raise is that I believe in the rules section it states that people younger than 18 are not allowed here (I could be wrong). I understand that it is not something that a decent/normal website would do to allow minors onto their site if it contains any kind of pornographic material, and we should try to follow this general rule to keep our image clean, but shouldn't there be some kind of compromise we could make such as keeping all the pornographic (and maybe even how-to sex) stuff restricted to a section that only members 18 or older can go? I think this is important to address because there are zoos out there who happen to be minors who are also in need of some kind of community and social acceptance and who would like to make even just online friends with other zoos like them. Making a safe and appropriate place for zoo minors to feel welcome could go a long way to saving lives and increasing happiness and self-esteem and confidence in those who feel isolated and even help to expand our community.

 

[Mammal-lover]

I beilivd we are fighting for our community for those who follow us but not for ourselves. We are setting ourselves up to be miserable so our future community can be happy and free.

 

[SpaceDragon]

@SpaceDragon

And the best part is that there are already such organizations. We just have to start volunteering our time and resources to supporting them, which it is already open and perfectly socially acceptable to do.

Oh, I wasn't aware lol. I still have to ask however, if such organizations exist, why are there still zoos who suffer the same problems that these organizations should address? What are the loopholes that allow some unfortunate number of us and our non-human companions to slip through the cracks?

I beilivd we are fighting for our community for those who follow us but not for ourselves. We are setting ourselves up to be miserable so our future community can be happy and free.

Well, I think some of the actions we can take today can improve even our lives, but regardless, it is a worthy cause either way to improve the lives of future generations, and no real change ever happens without real effort in the beginning.

I think one of our first goals as a community should be to clean up our image in the wider society, where ever the public can see us they should see otherwise decent law-abiding people who are not a threat to society and are not creepy sex freaks. One small way I wonder if we can do this is I've noticed that there are profile pics here that are sexual in nature, many of which are literally pictures of genitals. I think making those kind of profile pics against the rules could make non-zoos that visit this forum less inclined to see us as sex obsessed in addition to already thinking we are creepy, therefor making us appear to be the kind of normal people that we want to be seen as.

Personally I have no problem whatsoever with sexual/nude pics like that and I think those things shouldn't be taboo, but this is more about improving our image among non-zoos than doing only what makes us comfortable, and I think this forum can be a big first step into bringing our community into public view and contemplation.

And to add to this first proposal, Grindr, a gay dating and hook-up app, made it against their rules to have nude or sexual profile pics, likely in an effort to improve their image. I even once told my dad I used that app and he reacted negatively because he considered that app to be sex focused, probably in part due to the effect profile pics like that had on Grindr's reputation. So I don't think it would be too crazy to think it would help improve the image of this site (which isn't even intended to be for dating and hook-ups, but rather a friendly place to gather the community) to do the same.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

@SpaceDragon

For the same reason that we have organizations that defend people's freedom of speech, but there are still people in power that say, "but that only counts if I agree with you." It is not easy to stand up for those rights, and it is far too easy for people to fall into the trap of thinking they can make exceptions, then another, then another. It is a hard fight.