140150
140152
Heya YIMBIS
Heya YIMBIS
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140153
Yo, peeps!
Yo, peeps!
140154
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YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140155
Good moor-ning, peopluffs (the unholy amalgamation between floofs and people).
Welcome back @FoxandtheHounds and @MrsShemon ! ??
Again under the living beings. Another day, another dumbfondled brain due to too much work and too less motivation. Hopefully a local discounter soon has a bag of motivation lying in special offer row just near the onions and tomatoes. I would stack up, surely.
Good moor-ning, peopluffs (the unholy amalgamation between floofs and people).
Welcome back @FoxandtheHounds and @MrsShemon ! ??
Again under the living beings. Another day, another dumbfondled brain due to too much work and too less motivation. Hopefully a local discounter soon has a bag of motivation lying in special offer row just near the onions and tomatoes. I would stack up, surely.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140157
Ah, Zunder. They're made from some sort of cotton wool and / or plastic fibers from what I saw while having them as absorbing and tightening tool in the process of welding tubes filled with inert gas.
As such I didn't use them to start a fire, usually I have rocket oven technology which has primary and secondary combustion and as such only needs a very few dry or burnable things below to start a good fire.
*translates "Tinder"*
Ah, Zunder. They're made from some sort of cotton wool and / or plastic fibers from what I saw while having them as absorbing and tightening tool in the process of welding tubes filled with inert gas.
As such I didn't use them to start a fire, usually I have rocket oven technology which has primary and secondary combustion and as such only needs a very few dry or burnable things below to start a good fire.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140158
I just was reminded that you added tampons in your shopping list to test if they were any good as zunder.
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140159
That's possible, I try a lot of things cross-wise. But those were definitely made from cotton wool partly, which doesn't burn well (it's used as a partly protective cover against welding sparks, not as good as leather but still keeps up to a big heat shortly). As such I didn't follow this idea further I assume.
I tried something else which worked quite well: Stainless steel wool like used for scratching dishes clean. If you add some burning gel to it, it is reusable and leads the heat quickly to the burnable material around it.
Most of the time it's just used paper towels, like for cleaning hands, snoozing nose, remove oil stains and comparable. I collect them after use and recycle them as tinder. It's the quickest method.
That's possible, I try a lot of things cross-wise. But those were definitely made from cotton wool partly, which doesn't burn well (it's used as a partly protective cover against welding sparks, not as good as leather but still keeps up to a big heat shortly). As such I didn't follow this idea further I assume.
I tried something else which worked quite well: Stainless steel wool like used for scratching dishes clean. If you add some burning gel to it, it is reusable and leads the heat quickly to the burnable material around it.
Most of the time it's just used paper towels, like for cleaning hands, snoozing nose, remove oil stains and comparable. I collect them after use and recycle them as tinder. It's the quickest method.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140160
You need to use tampons made primarily from wood fibre. But those might be a Nordic thing, ain't much cotton up here, but we don't really have a shortage of trees.
You need to use tampons made primarily from wood fibre. But those might be a Nordic thing, ain't much cotton up here, but we don't really have a shortage of trees.
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140161
Oh, from wood fiber? That's something new, I guess those are not everywhere to be found in our stores.
Aside cotton it's some other highly-absorbing material and for different hardness a sponge-like stuff which probably gets made from plastic. But I don't have them regularly sitting on a bench, I get them mostly for smaller tubes which need individual size "caps" on one end as such the inert gas doesn't "flow" out on the bottom side, as it is heavier than air.
I can remember that we probably talked about the wood fiber solution beforehand, tho.
Oh, from wood fiber? That's something new, I guess those are not everywhere to be found in our stores.
Aside cotton it's some other highly-absorbing material and for different hardness a sponge-like stuff which probably gets made from plastic. But I don't have them regularly sitting on a bench, I get them mostly for smaller tubes which need individual size "caps" on one end as such the inert gas doesn't "flow" out on the bottom side, as it is heavier than air.
I can remember that we probably talked about the wood fiber solution beforehand, tho.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140162
This
www.bodyform.co.uk
is just one of the world leading manufacturers of female hygiene products (Libresse), tampons and pads are made primarily from pulp fibres.
Probably found in almost any store all over the world.
This
Sustainability | Bodyform
www.bodyform.co.uk
Depending on how you process the wood fibres, they can be made even more absorbable than cotton fibres.
Most likely we did. But this thing about using tampons as zunder was after my US tampon failure story.
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140163
Hmm, I would think that the types of materials used vary less because of the "producers", but more because of regular / country wide law requirements. Likely linked to health standards and comparable, which materials are allowed in which amount.
But as there are bamboo tooth brushes and a wide variety of wooden- / bamboo made hygienic products, it's well possible to find wooden fiber tampons in stores of GER nowadays, too.
Hmm, I would think that the types of materials used vary less because of the "producers", but more because of regular / country wide law requirements. Likely linked to health standards and comparable, which materials are allowed in which amount.
But as there are bamboo tooth brushes and a wide variety of wooden- / bamboo made hygienic products, it's well possible to find wooden fiber tampons in stores of GER nowadays, too.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140164
In German stores you will most likely find a buttload of stuff made from wood fibres. Although bamboo is technically grass, it has a rather similar cell structure as both hardwood and softwood, and can be used to make basically everything "real" wood fibres can be used for (with some exceptions).
Wood fibres can actually replace all oil based products and production, but that would be very bad for US and MENA economy, so a rather influential lobby organization against switching to wood fibres on a planetary scale exist.
In German stores you will most likely find a buttload of stuff made from wood fibres. Although bamboo is technically grass, it has a rather similar cell structure as both hardwood and softwood, and can be used to make basically everything "real" wood fibres can be used for (with some exceptions).
Wood fibres can actually replace all oil based products and production, but that would be very bad for US and MENA economy, so a rather influential lobby organization against switching to wood fibres on a planetary scale exist.
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140165
A big problem with bamboo is less it's versatility, as it can be heat-pressed (comparable to wood, but even works without any glue/binding additives) into shapes easily and quickly, but exactly it's properties as grass.
Because "wood" fibers actually don't tend to build up fungi spores quickly, some have natural protective ingredients, like acidic liquids, the "Harz" and comparable. They balance out the amount of water in the air quite well without suffering by it.
Grass like bamboo actually corrodes, molds quickly. This makes it quite a bad choice for all those things with higher wall thickness (storing water inside the walls, the density differences tear parts and mold builds up) or regular use in liquid / wet areas, if it can't dry wholly and quite quickly to an acceptable level.
One of the reasons I don't use bamboo made materials for kitchen environments in contact with food. It can get stabilized by adding chemicals, but that's for sure not the way to go for using food on it..
"Real" wood is quite rarely used in our products, nowadays. It's either cellulose or waste wooden products like those made from little snippets and fibers. Comparable to "producing paper", somewhat. And that often binds chemicals in those products as well, unfortunately. The durability is lower than well-cared for real wood, as well.
You surely know the "IKEA" concept of coating wood waste pressed into shape with plastic coatings (laminates). You can't sand it down after damages occur, it loves to mold on low air-exchange areas and neither would it hold up the stress a massive wooden table as example would.
Addendum: I know that you probably are more experienced with plant fibers and their growth than I, as such it's quite useless to explain this. But in practical use it unfortunately tends to prove the weaknesses of bamboo quite quickly.. Had some working table for soldering molding on the surface after there was a somewhat wet (with cleaning liquid! A household cleaner which usually kills fungal spores! ?
) towel on it for a few days. Never happened with wood.
A big problem with bamboo is less it's versatility, as it can be heat-pressed (comparable to wood, but even works without any glue/binding additives) into shapes easily and quickly, but exactly it's properties as grass.
Because "wood" fibers actually don't tend to build up fungi spores quickly, some have natural protective ingredients, like acidic liquids, the "Harz" and comparable. They balance out the amount of water in the air quite well without suffering by it.
Grass like bamboo actually corrodes, molds quickly. This makes it quite a bad choice for all those things with higher wall thickness (storing water inside the walls, the density differences tear parts and mold builds up) or regular use in liquid / wet areas, if it can't dry wholly and quite quickly to an acceptable level.
One of the reasons I don't use bamboo made materials for kitchen environments in contact with food. It can get stabilized by adding chemicals, but that's for sure not the way to go for using food on it..
"Real" wood is quite rarely used in our products, nowadays. It's either cellulose or waste wooden products like those made from little snippets and fibers. Comparable to "producing paper", somewhat. And that often binds chemicals in those products as well, unfortunately. The durability is lower than well-cared for real wood, as well.
You surely know the "IKEA" concept of coating wood waste pressed into shape with plastic coatings (laminates). You can't sand it down after damages occur, it loves to mold on low air-exchange areas and neither would it hold up the stress a massive wooden table as example would.
Addendum: I know that you probably are more experienced with plant fibers and their growth than I, as such it's quite useless to explain this.
But in practical use it unfortunately tends to prove the weaknesses of bamboo quite quickly.. Had some working table for soldering molding on the surface after there was a somewhat wet (with cleaning liquid! A household cleaner which usually kills fungal spores! ? ) towel on it for a few days. Never happened with wood.
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M
MrsShemon
Guest
140166
I only had the usage of fibres in pulp industry in mind with my former post. Such products are intended for "one time use", unless you make clothes or "plastics", but in those, you have to mix some wood fibres, won't last long otherwise, as you already said.
Speaking construction, some trees, like spruce, don't even need to be chemically enhanced to last for centuries in an outdoors environment. When the wood dries, it closes it's fibre openings, effectively making it waterproof. With no moisture within the plank/board/log, mushrooms and degrading organisms can't attach to the wood, and it will not start to rot.
Trees and tree based material is amazing, in my opinion anyway.
I only had the usage of fibres in pulp industry in mind with my former post. Such products are intended for "one time use", unless you make clothes or "plastics", but in those, you have to mix some wood fibres, won't last long otherwise, as you already said.
Speaking construction, some trees, like spruce, don't even need to be chemically enhanced to last for centuries in an outdoors environment. When the wood dries, it closes it's fibre openings, effectively making it waterproof. With no moisture within the plank/board/log, mushrooms and degrading organisms can't attach to the wood, and it will not start to rot.
Trees and tree based material is amazing, in my opinion anyway.
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140167
I've added something to my last posting, you might need to refresh to see it.
It's comparable to placing 18/10 (1.4301 stainless steel used in kitchen utensils often) in water for a longer time and adding some remains of fruit juice or food, this will make it more aggressive and it will start to corrode as well, even being protected by a thin layer of self-passivizing surface oxide through the nickel and chrome addendums.
But for a well-protected outdoor use I love to build with Larch, Douglas Fir or one of the self-protective Mahogany woods. Spruce depends a bit on the prior handling from my experience. If it is as example impregnated.. ? no, wait, what's the word for it in English.. *searches* Oh, it's really pressure impregnated (lol) or kept well-dried, then it works good. Problematic might be the low weight in combination with endurance regarding static loads, but one can overcome this by doubling the height as example.
I've added something to my last posting, you might need to refresh to see it.
Absolutely. I love working and building with / from real wood. Bamboo is okay, but more used for specific environments or tasks. It doesn't self-combust as quickly as wood from my experience, if it is heated by a flame, as it seems to emit a lower amount of combustible gaseous mixes. It's still not recommended to use wood or bamboo as a heat shield.
Yep, that's a type of wood I love (due to its low price and wide availability, even being protected by prior measurements) to use in outdoor environments as well. If you place an evened surface upwards without protection, so that water can't dry / run off, they will start to corrode quickly. No matter which wooden type one uses.
It's comparable to placing 18/10 (1.4301 stainless steel used in kitchen utensils often) in water for a longer time and adding some remains of fruit juice or food, this will make it more aggressive and it will start to corrode as well, even being protected by a thin layer of self-passivizing surface oxide through the nickel and chrome addendums.
But for a well-protected outdoor use I love to build with Larch, Douglas Fir or one of the self-protective Mahogany woods. Spruce depends a bit on the prior handling from my experience. If it is as example impregnated.. ? no, wait, what's the word for it in English.. *searches* Oh, it's really pressure impregnated (lol) or kept well-dried, then it works good. Problematic might be the low weight in combination with endurance regarding static loads, but one can overcome this by doubling the height as example.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140168
Of course even spruce will start to corrode if water is on it for a prolonged time. As the "waterproof" quality is only to have moist just drop from it, having it in water will allow the moisture needed organisms to start degrading it. Same thing happens with standing planks if grass is allowed to reach it, the grass will create a moist local environment and those organisms can start doing what they do.
To increase strength in a spruce based construction, I would use glulam, the woods own glue is used to hold the thing togheter and it is still virtually a natural and recycable construction.
Of course even spruce will start to corrode if water is on it for a prolonged time. As the "waterproof" quality is only to have moist just drop from it, having it in water will allow the moisture needed organisms to start degrading it. Same thing happens with standing planks if grass is allowed to reach it, the grass will create a moist local environment and those organisms can start doing what they do.
To increase strength in a spruce based construction, I would use glulam, the woods own glue is used to hold the thing togheter and it is still virtually a natural and recycable construction.
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140169
I find it interesting that - if you have wooden planks permanently in moving water, as example a sea or river - they are corroding slower than if they're just placed in the earth (or on the earth) with plant contact or regular moist environment.
This seems to resemble that a big amount of water itself isn't "helpful" for the microorganisms, aside allowing them to build up and exist - but as soon as the water moves, it seems to remove quite a big amount of those build-up organisms repeatedly and the wood absorbs a lot of water (surely, loosing it's strength), but doesn't break down into nothingness that quickly.
I've used different natural glue combinations, but at the end - for construction works - I tend to use an expanding PU D5 glue which is absolutely water resisting and as well doesn't break down in lower heats. Even as this makes it harder to recycle the wood: one can quite simple sand the glued areas down to the wood, if the planks / bars and such are to be reused later on.
This in combination with stainless steel screws (as oxidation on the nails and screws is one of the main failure reasons in not-absolutely-dry environments!) works very well. If one protects the wood with a natural coating which is as well surface-efficient and (on applying) crouches into the fibers quite a bit - it holds up for 20+ years outside without any disadvantages.
If one wants to protect it permanently and doesn't care much about the recycling ability, he can use a fiber compound laminating 2k epoxy resin and work it into the surface / remove the remains aside a small layer. This will prevent fouling and molding for 10+ years even without a further coating all 1-3 years. But it makes it hard to recycle, that's for sure.
I find it interesting that - if you have wooden planks permanently in moving water, as example a sea or river - they are corroding slower than if they're just placed in the earth (or on the earth) with plant contact or regular moist environment.
This seems to resemble that a big amount of water itself isn't "helpful" for the microorganisms, aside allowing them to build up and exist - but as soon as the water moves, it seems to remove quite a big amount of those build-up organisms repeatedly and the wood absorbs a lot of water (surely, loosing it's strength), but doesn't break down into nothingness that quickly.
I've used different natural glue combinations, but at the end - for construction works - I tend to use an expanding PU D5 glue which is absolutely water resisting and as well doesn't break down in lower heats. Even as this makes it harder to recycle the wood: one can quite simple sand the glued areas down to the wood, if the planks / bars and such are to be reused later on.
This in combination with stainless steel screws (as oxidation on the nails and screws is one of the main failure reasons in not-absolutely-dry environments!) works very well. If one protects the wood with a natural coating which is as well surface-efficient and (on applying) crouches into the fibers quite a bit - it holds up for 20+ years outside without any disadvantages.
If one wants to protect it permanently and doesn't care much about the recycling ability, he can use a fiber compound laminating 2k epoxy resin and work it into the surface / remove the remains aside a small layer. This will prevent fouling and molding for 10+ years even without a further coating all 1-3 years. But it makes it hard to recycle, that's for sure.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140169+1
But, go to a place with shipworms and it becomes an entirely different story.
This is actually very logical. Different ecosystems have different organisms in them. Large assemblies of water don't really have an abundance of wood, and not many organisms in need of wood.
But, go to a place with shipworms and it becomes an entirely different story.
Seems like a metal based construction could be better in those cases. Unless the lower density of wood is a positive quality you really want to utilize.
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140171
Cute smut. 
True, depending on the insects or microorganisms there's a way quicker eroding to expect.
But in regards to water: it's all depending on the "aggressive" composition of this. As example: if you have a non-balanced pH value, it might corrode the wood -itself- by breaking it down. Fortunately most open waters are not that aggressive.
A lot of solution detergents as well would break down the wood even without any cellular activity being active in there (as the microorganisms wouldn't be able to survive in this as well).
Hmm, nowadays it's a problem in terms of price and form shaping.
Steel constructions are oxide dependent - even fire tinning them doesn't protect against scratches forever (it starts to corrode the tin going from the blank surface areas on moisture, as it protects them as an electrolytic less-worthy metal to the corrosion) and it's as well not massive, as such you can't just screw a hole in it and put screws through hollow constructions wholly, as this would deform them. You need spacers inside or use one-sided mounting options.
Aluminum constructions are quite well self-protective by self-oxidizing with the non-conducting aluminum oxide coat. But they actually give physical atoms to the environment by contact with as example acidic or base moist environments. This is something I don't want in overly big amounts.
Stainless steel is expensive..
If you want a rectangle tube with 3,5-5 mm wall thickness and around 100-120 mm height, 60-80 mm broadness, which for sure is ways more robust than one massive wooden bar - but on the other hand the outer shapes are similar, means: you could use it without structural changes of the construction layers - then you would pay about 800 € or more for five meters of this.
A wooden bar from douglas fir as example would cost ~12 to 20 € per meter I assume. And can get screwed on without preparations.
Even fire-tinned steel tubes would cost multiple hundred euros for 4-5 meters of length. As such wood is really versatile - even in terms of prices. And sure: a stainless steel construction would.. stay forever, if the atmospheric balance doesn't change much in the next 500 years. It wouldn't break down. But the costs would be immense.
The weight of such a tube which withstands side and top loads of half a ton without collapsing is as well around 8 to 15 times that of a wooden bar.
Cute smut.
True, depending on the insects or microorganisms there's a way quicker eroding to expect.
But in regards to water: it's all depending on the "aggressive" composition of this. As example: if you have a non-balanced pH value, it might corrode the wood -itself- by breaking it down. Fortunately most open waters are not that aggressive.
A lot of solution detergents as well would break down the wood even without any cellular activity being active in there (as the microorganisms wouldn't be able to survive in this as well).
Hmm, nowadays it's a problem in terms of price and form shaping.
Steel constructions are oxide dependent - even fire tinning them doesn't protect against scratches forever (it starts to corrode the tin going from the blank surface areas on moisture, as it protects them as an electrolytic less-worthy metal to the corrosion) and it's as well not massive, as such you can't just screw a hole in it and put screws through hollow constructions wholly, as this would deform them. You need spacers inside or use one-sided mounting options.
Aluminum constructions are quite well self-protective by self-oxidizing with the non-conducting aluminum oxide coat. But they actually give physical atoms to the environment by contact with as example acidic or base moist environments. This is something I don't want in overly big amounts.
Stainless steel is expensive..
If you want a rectangle tube with 3,5-5 mm wall thickness and around 100-120 mm height, 60-80 mm broadness, which for sure is ways more robust than one massive wooden bar - but on the other hand the outer shapes are similar, means: you could use it without structural changes of the construction layers - then you would pay about 800 € or more for five meters of this.
A wooden bar from douglas fir as example would cost ~12 to 20 € per meter I assume. And can get screwed on without preparations.
Even fire-tinned steel tubes would cost multiple hundred euros for 4-5 meters of length. As such wood is really versatile - even in terms of prices. And sure: a stainless steel construction would.. stay forever, if the atmospheric balance doesn't change much in the next 500 years. It wouldn't break down. But the costs would be immense.
The weight of such a tube which withstands side and top loads of half a ton without collapsing is as well around 8 to 15 times that of a wooden bar.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140172
And even if organisms feeding on wood exist in the waters you want to build a wooden construction. PH- levels and oxygen levels have a huge effect.
Just look at HMS Wasa that the Swedes salvaged after over 300 years at the bottom of Stockholm archipelago, it was pretty much intact without any corrosion, in waters filled with wood eating organisms.
Had it been in shallower waters, it would have degraded to nothing but a pile of metal pieces.
And even if organisms feeding on wood exist in the waters you want to build a wooden construction. PH- levels and oxygen levels have a huge effect.
Just look at HMS Wasa that the Swedes salvaged after over 300 years at the bottom of Stockholm archipelago, it was pretty much intact without any corrosion, in waters filled with wood eating organisms.
Had it been in shallower waters, it would have degraded to nothing but a pile of metal pieces.
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140173
It's always the complete environment effects, rarely just one aspect.
Oh, middle of day, I've to put something on (better than a bed duvet, lol - that happens if one starts to read ZV before putting on the dress) and doing some stuff. Might look into ZV today evening, let's see.
Wish you a good day, my good forest protective demon deity. Reminds me to "Princess mononoke" from time to time, but you're more elegant.
It's always the complete environment effects, rarely just one aspect.
Oh, middle of day, I've to put something on (better than a bed duvet, lol - that happens if one starts to read ZV before putting on the dress) and doing some stuff. Might look into ZV today evening, let's see.
Wish you a good day, my good forest protective demon deity. Reminds me to "Princess mononoke" from time to time, but you're more elegant.
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140174
A dryad would likely have been a more fitting avatar, but a friendly demon is not that bad of a fit either.
Have a good Mitte der Woche!
A dryad would likely have been a more fitting avatar, but a friendly demon is not that bad of a fit either.
Have a good Mitte der Woche!
YanchaOkami
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
140176
Yep. Welcome Yimby! ?
I'm still here as I need to fix something beforehand which will take another hour. As such cleaning => fixing => test run => then I'm gone.
Yep. Welcome Yimby! ?
I'm still here as I need to fix something beforehand which will take another hour. As such cleaning => fixing => test run => then I'm gone.
140177
M
MrsShemon
Guest
140179