Should using bait in licking videos be banned (please read first)?

[pes]

I already mentioned that I am only looking for 1 week of feedback.

First post posted at Aug 10, 2022 at 3:50 PM
(Updated) Current results Aug 17, 2022 at 3:50 PM:

Pretty tight.

 

[Mare Lover 1975]

First post posted at Aug 10, 2022
Current results Aug 17, 2022:
View attachment 296327
Pretty tight.

How many known Zoos do you think actually noticed this and bothered to vote?

Move it to either the DF or a porn section and watch it swing the other way instantaneously ?

 

[Goattobeloved]

First post posted at Aug 10, 2022
Current results Aug 17, 2022:
View attachment 296327
Pretty tight.

Hey! We just saw what you voted!! ?

That is a good result as everyone can say it was his vote breaking the draw

 

[CuriousWisc.]

I haven't read all 5 pages of comments. I did look at the results of the post, and currently it's evenly split. The argument that "most members agree with the moderators needs to set aside, as it doesn't apply to the results of the poll.

Also, I also read comments from some of the moderators that said, "it's never going to change," the underlying argument to the question "Why is it wrong?" being, "Because I said so." That is not a defense... it's using your power to effect outcomes. In many circles that is called bullying.

You can care about animals all you want, but bullying people shows a lack of care for people.

Just one last point. The whole concept of domestication, is coercion at the core. If it wasn't, then all animals would be wild. If said peanut butter is being used as a training incentive, than how is it different, fundamentally, from using praise or treats for rewards?

There probably are good reasons both pro and con to anyone's position.

Perhaps this has much less to do with peanut butter, but more to do about the way forums are organized on here.

By the way, I didn't vote in the poll, as I am just a bystander. 44% or 45% is hardly an overwhelming opinion.

 

[pes]

No amount votes will change our opinion and belief that this is absolutely wrong. This rule will not change. It falls under the forced category.

I already mentioned that I am only looking for 1 week of feedback.

Exactly a week (to the minute ) after the poll started:

First post posted at Aug 10, 2022 at 3:50 PM
(Updated) Current results Aug 17, 2022 at 3:50 PM:
View attachment 296344
Pretty tight.

I argue we should do this supported by the result of the poll:

I know it falls under forcing, but clearly it is not clear and if the opinion is so strongly against baiting within the mod stuff, we could add that baiting videos will be removed to the list.

In this way:

Yes, I'd even settle with a "not allowed and will be deleted at staff discretion"

 

[temporaryacc]

Exactly a week (to the minute ) after the poll started:

I argue we should do this supported by the result of the poll:

In this way:

Glad that the poll won’t effect the rules. I’d hate to watch the porn here simply get worse and worse because it’s “technically not hurting the animal”

 

[Keepinitlowkey]

Finally, I want to address why I didn't defer to the mods on this. It is because I am worried about ZV over time becoming the next BeastForum (even though it isn't there yet). Perhaps the main reason among many that BeastForum was notoriously terrible is because the mods didn't care an ounce what people think and did whatever they wanted wherever they wanted.

An example of why I'm worried: Oldman was an active BeastForum mod so he is tied to that mess and now he is a mod on ZV. He said in this thread he doesn't care what the community thinks in this thread which is a carry over from BeastForum. Community members put messages of support for the mods to do whatever they want here which is their right but it also removes another barrier against becoming BeastForum. OldMan said the community needs leaders - but being a leader is an earned title, not bestowed. Was Pez (new mod) not a leader then suddenly became one upon his modship? Of course not. His merit in being a leader was earned over time, but mod policy right now wouldn't have given a voice to him before.

If ZV wants to stay good and get better it needs to have a culture of being inclusive, respectful, and caring what the community thinks. Even the tiny power of being a mod causes people to negatively change. It is human nature. Has anyone heard good things about school boards or home owners associations or other small positions of power? Why is that? As bad as those are they are elected positions and mods are not, so ZV's outlook is even worse given no checks and balances.

The reason I have been doing all this is because I care about ZV. I don't have a need that keeps me here. I could start my own forum. I have the technical skills to do that and to out-compete ZV on a technical front. Fracturing the zoo community wouldn't help it though. It is much better to work with what is here as long as it is possible.

My last bit of input. It’s starting to seem that your just upset about your poll being ignored. I’ve dealt with oldman regarding many different issues, and he has been amazing at explaining things, or taking immediate action.
Nothing is going to change, learn to deal with it, or start your own forum and see how that goes. Licking videos with “bait” will never be allowed, simply because there’s too many grey areas, and we would probably see way to many dicks smeared with peanut butter (Which is not good for animals!) end of story.

 

[temporaryacc]

Wow you have a fundamental misunderstanding of dogs. Many MANY dogs are food motivated. My own is (and he eats a lot of food, not fat though). Most people you ask will have food motivated pets. Also why the fuck isn’t the dogs eating, there’s no way a dog eating human scraps will be remotely healthy.

-Are you feeding the right food (avoid grains and legumes, add enough meat, add enough vitamins?)

-Are you over feeding and relying on grazing?

-Is the dog sick? (Arguably the most important!)

Also MAJORITY of the people here made accounts for porn, look at the porn section and notice how lots comment there but never post in the main threads. This is literally a debate SPECIFICALLY about PORN. Do you not expect us to talk about porn and the unsavory few that join soley because of it.

Also sorry that a mod is slightly aggressive to you. It’s called the internet, get the fuck over it. They are trying to create an ethical and safe environment. If your morals disagree you have your right to bitch, people will just bitch back. If you have so much of a problem you can make your own form. Where you have your own porn. And foster a community there.

I personally think it should be a specified rule and not under forcing. It’s wrong in my eyes.

 

[Oldman]

An example of why I'm worried: Oldman was an active BeastForum mod so he is tied to that mess and now he is a mod on ZV. He said in this thread he doesn't care what the community thinks in this thread which is a carry over from BeastForum. Community members put messages of support for the mods to do whatever they want here which is their right but it also removes another barrier against becoming BeastForum. OldMan said the community needs leaders - but being a leader is an earned title, not bestowed. Was Pez (new mod) not a leader then suddenly became one upon his modship? Of course not. His merit in being a leader was earned over time, but mod policy right now wouldn't have given a voice to him before.

STOP FUCKING SAYING I WAS PART OF BEAST FORUM MOD TEAM! I WAS NOT! Where the hell did you read that or what the fuck gave you that impression?

The reason I have been doing all this is because I care about ZV. I don't have a need that keeps me here. I could start my own forum. I have the technical skills to do that and to out-compete ZV on a technical front. Fracturing the zoo community wouldn't help it though. It is much better to work with what is here as long as it is possible.

Please do so!!! For the love of god fuck off and create your own forum. You do not give 2 shits about ours or you will not be putting up word salads trying to defend a wrong point.

If ZV wants to stay good and get better it needs to have a culture of being inclusive, respectful, and caring what the community thinks. Even the tiny power of being a mod causes people to negatively change. It is human nature. Has anyone heard good things about school boards or home owners associations or other small positions of power? Why is that? As bad as those are they are elected positions and mods are not, so ZV's outlook is even worse given no checks and balances.

Wrong again. We keep it from becoming a cesspool of bullshit that you are trying to create. We don't have time nor the fucks to give to cater to snowflakes whose feelings are hurt when we say no, and then they complain and we say fuck no, and they complain some more and make threads and word salads like these.

 

[temporaryacc]

Accuses someone of being snowflakes yet uses all caps lmao

STOP FUCKING SAYING I WAS PART OF BEAST FORUM MOD TEAM! I WAS NOT! Where the hell did you read that or what the fuck gave you that impression?

Please do so!!! For the love of god fuck off and create your own forum. You do not give 2 shits about ours or you will not be putting up word salads trying to defend a wrong point.


Wrong again. We keep it from becoming a cesspool of bullshit that you are trying to create. We don't have time nor the fucks to give to cater to snowflakes whose feelings are hurt when we say no, and then they complain and we say fuck no, and they complain some more and make threads and word salads like these.

 

[Keepinitlowkey]

Accuses someone of being snowflakes yet uses all caps lmao

It’s called being fed up by someone that doesn’t listen. In the old days, if yelling didn’t work, you got knocked the fuck out next. Snowflake! Ha!

 

[temporaryacc]

It’s called being fed up by someone that doesn’t listen. In the old days, if yelling didn’t work, you got knocked the fuck out next. Snowflake! Ha!

I’ve yet to be knocked out, even though I’m like this irl.

You’re encouraging violence against someone… that’s a bit snowflake behavior.

 

[temporaryacc]

But old man is 100% in the right

 

[Keepinitlowkey]

I’ve yet to be knocked out, even though I’m like this irl.

You’re encouraging violence against someone… that’s a bit snowflake behavior.

That’s quite the opposite actually. Snowflakes are the ones screaming “they threatened me with violence” as the scream obscenities and verbally assault the other…
You seem to backtrack and contradict yourself a lot. Maybe before opening your mouth, you should think before you speak, or at least start mashing keys…
And I’m done!

 

[temporaryacc]

That’s quite the opposite actually. Snowflakes are the ones screaming “they threatened me with violence” as the scream obscenities and verbally assault the other…
You seem to backtrack and contradict yourself a lot. Maybe before opening your mouth, you should think before you speak, or at least start mashing keys…
And I’m done!

Can’t both be true. I didn’t say threatened violence only encouraged it, but to be honest even that might be reading to much into it. Internet is where we share opinions. As long as it doesn’t bleed into the real world it’s free reign.

 

[Goattobeloved]

*Reads latest posts*
At this point I can only "steal and show"

Sort of DF worthy...

 

[AppleDash]

Zoosexuals often claim that their nonhuman partners are at least their equals, and possibly even more important to them than people. Using food to "train" for sex doesn't fit in this image. It's disingenuous, coercive, and only a thin line away from abuse. What worth has a relationship of supposedly equals if one party will add or withhold something in order to train the other in sex? If we don't accept this in human-human relationships, then why would it be okay in zoosexual relationships? Exchanging food for sex is basically prostitution, and while many might be perfectly fine with it, it is not how I want my sexual orientation to be perceived within and outside the zoosexual community.

 

[nekdoneco123]

I'm pretty tired of people creating something else out of my posts and responding to that instead. It seems I can spend all day saying "I didn't say that, I actually said..." So I'll take a break from this thread for a bit. Maybe until the weekend.

you're kinda doing the same thing with @Oldman tho... i was a member on BF and don't remember him being a mod there. also, given the general reputation the mod team there had, i doubt he'd be even considered for a mod here.

 

[Dogdaddy69]

Zoosexuals often claim that their nonhuman partners are at least their equals, and possibly even more important to them than people. Using food to "train" for sex doesn't fit in this image. It's disingenuous, coercive, and only a thin line away from abuse. What worth has a relationship of supposedly equals if one party will add or withhold something in order to train the other in sex? If we don't accept this in human-human relationships, then why would it be okay in zoosexual relationships? Exchanging food for sex is basically prostitution, and while many might be perfectly fine with it, it is not how I want my sexual orientation to be perceived within and outside the zoosexual community.

I think you are being VERY generous about a very LARGE chunk of human relationships. Whether willfully or unintentionally, I can't say.

*MOST* human relationships are or become toxic in some form or another. Quite a few of them in the exact ways I bolded in your statement.

I don't disagree with you, per say, but I do believe the human/human aspect is not nearly as noble as it's cracked up to be.

 

[temporaryacc]

I'm not sure how you think this considering I was one of the few here who kept my head the entire time. I even spent a whole post complimenting one of my mod critics. I presented my reasons so hopefully you actually read them. I think anytime mods don't believe they need to care what the community they manage thinks that it is a bad thing; that isn't specific to Oldman. I saved these thoughts for the end because I wanted the thread to stay on the original topic. I mentioned many times before that I would talk about this at the end. It didn't happen at the end because I was mad about the results. It's good that you've seen some positive things from Oldman. I mainly stick to the How To section answering questions so I haven't seen him in action in ZV.



You should relax. I remember you as a mod on Beastforum because of the same name and profile picture. I remember you said "Thank you" on every porn post and I didn't happen upon any other meaningful posts from you. I'll ask some other people I know who were around at the time to make sure my memory is correct. I'm going to stop replying to you because it seems you don't respond to the reasons I present and just keep repeating your opinion. I haven't been trying to get you mad. I think a mod should have more self control. People will actually try to get mods mad and even in those cases mods are expected to fairly apply the rules, de-escalate situations, and not react out of emotion like how you've been responding to me. I've seen Floofy do some great de-escalation work in the past. Kudos to him.



Did I say that NO dogs were food motivated? I was responding to the idea that dogs have no choice, that they HAVE to immediately eat any food put in front of them. That is the idea created when people say PB usage is forcing. Forcing as a word in that context means the dogs have NO CHOICE, and they can only have no choice if 100% of the time dogs need to eat PB at every opportunity. I was arguing that we should stop calling it forcing and call it something else like enticing or tempting or baiting is also fine.



I said custom cooked meals. I didn't say human scraps. The dog is old, has lived her life on that diet, and is in great health. She starts picking and grazing immediately. It is not after eating large quantities of food.



I'm not offended by what the mods said, but I am worried about what that means for the future of ZV.



I didn't say there aren't people who join and only look at porn. People can talk about what they want. It should be done respectfully and with understanding though.

Miss read what you said with the food. Entirely my bad, thanks for clarifying. Someone else pointed out I worded wrong earlier as well. Sorry.

However for the porn. I’m sick of porn people, I don’t care what you say. I am going to treat them bad. An entire thread exists for cleaning up abusive porn. Which is where the ARGUMENT STARTED. Allowing peanut butter porn is fucked up in my eyes. If people do it, what can I do to stop them? Nothing. But I don’t want to be somewhere that allows it. Hence why I stopped using porn sites when i came here. A lot of porn people are fine and dandy and don’t bother anyone. However it’s the ones that are looking for abusive shit or say abusive shit that make it bad for the rest of us.

I don’t know why you just don’t start your own form or porn site, just create what you see fit for the rules. Or you know pitch ideas to the mod staff in a non inflammatory way? (Though it’s very hard on the internet since we tend to be a bit quicker with our words here.) Even though I have a lot of biases I’m not asking the mods to ban the beast as a fetish section. I can be mad and fuck if I’m that mad about it, I’ll make something new.

Also why do you have to reward someone to have sex or do sexual things? It’s fucked up morally. And morally isn’t fact based unfortunately.

Freedom of speech on both sides. No one wants to silence your opinions just try to bring you to their side and be a dick sometimes too. If they wanted to silence you I’m sure they would’ve banned you by now.

Personally this just confirmed some of my own biases if anything, which probably isn’t a good thing ?

I appreciated your opinions and opening up the dialogue. However how many times do we need to have this argument

Tldr: sorry about the food my mistake. Porn is the whole argument. Make your own forum. I have my own biases. Thank you for the poll and dialogue.

(I need to learn how to summarize, christ)

 

[Wolfdreamer40000]

If the bait hurts the dog and is abusive, then yes, but a little saliva isn't going to hurt the dog especially if the dog likes cum. As long as there isn't any force, then the dog should be OK.

 

[Wolfdreamer40000]

Also yes peanut butter would be a bit overboard and can get stuck to the roof of their mouth, I don't think spit is really even tasty though. Peanut butter also feels so bad anywhere on my privates, dont like the feeling

 

[HugDoggy]

Well this has all been fun! Oops I left the sarcasm key turned on, sorry about that.

You know out of all this (looks up) 6 pages of post I don't think I saw a single person that was actually pro the use of food to encourage licking of genitals, in any of the responses so if everyone involved in the discussion is at best neutral or out right against the act, why is there an issue in the first place. Just make a rule saying such videos aren't allowed and move on.

 

[pes]

Just make a rule saying such videos aren't allowed and move on.

That is what I have been saying all the time.

 

[Oldman]

Sigh... This post is going to take me a while.

Title of the poll: Should using bait in licking videos be banned (please read first)?

*I say
we will not change the rule.

*You reply
Who is we? We are community blah blah blah...
I see this as somone trying to make themselves the voice of the community. The community does not need a voice, we make the decisions as a group for the betterment of zoo and zooville. There are no community rules, there is however, our rules. Don't like them, leave.

* You call our rules arbitrary, as if we didn't think about them, discuss them, think about some more, debate on how it affects others and then decide.

*You give yourself the mantle of experienced and say I disagree with the rule, therefore other people who have crowned themselves as experienced will also disagree with the rule.

This next part I am going to quote as I can't see myself typing it without outright banning you.

Eh, I can count on my hand the number of people who have shown the knowledge that I do when it comes to helping people here (which is basically the only reason I come here).

There has to be a standard to what makes an experienced community member beyond "I disgree with him".

This is absolutely fucking scary. This made me stop coming to the thread for a while. The absolute insanity you must have to think that you are helping people when it is clear you do not know what hell you are talking about.... Gave me pause. At that point I wanted to ban you in order to save the poor souls that either sought after your "help" or you flew over them and bestowed your "help" upon them like the magical goose that just ate bacon.

Cooler heads prevailed, we can't ban someone because they call themselves experienced and "help" the masses ect ect. We can only hope those people either realize what is going on or perhaps spark their curiosity to actually research something.

After a while and a bit of ribbing and banter I start reading your replies and I see this again:

How short a memory you both have. I've done nothing but help people since I've come here and blah blah

Blah blah, not going to read the rest as doing so will make me want to research this "help" you have provided and pray that it wasn't through private messages that I can not read.

*You say something along the lines of "i made good points that went unanswered..."
A good point is based in truth that can be verified or is at least shared in belief by the majority and has some logical sense. That should explain why they where ignored.

*You say "So far almost half of the site voted to keep PB usage and I think everyone who votes to keep it doesn't believe it falls under the forcing rule."

I had to correct you that as 107 is not half of 500,000

I'll stop right here as I do not want to read the rest as i skimmed over it and saw that you had the audacity to say this little poll was a success (i may have read that wrong, but eh, not going to go back over it today. I'll correct later of needed) and I simply just want to answer this one question you asked:

Based on the second part, do you think this thread was to try to convince you to change your mind? In that case I understand your frustration, like a kid asking their parents to buy them a toy they don't need 1000 times. It was not. The poll and discussion around baiting was not directed at the mods at all. It was directed at the community. I thought I made that really clear.

At this point, I am honestly flabbergasted. How on this green earth, do you not see, how every single post you have made in this thread, is not directly pointing to you trying to convince us moderators, management and the citizens you are clearly trying to rally, that baiting is acceptable?

 

[Dogdaddy69]

Turn on the option where your vote is publicly visible and you'll see that the majority of people who voted ''no'' are Lurkers or tourists. While the majority who voted ''yes'' are long time members here who know what they're talking about.

I didn't know that was an option. Or, for that matter, even a possibility. I think you're right though.

More than that though, I think it also changes the trajectory of the vote in another way. There will be some who would vote differently knowing their vote would be known. Gotta ask yourself how ethically sound an opinion is if it's one thing in private and another in public.

 

[nekdoneco123]

I think you are being VERY generous about a very LARGE chunk of human relationships. Whether willfully or unintentionally, I can't say.

*MOST* human relationships are or become toxic in some form or another. Quite a few of them in the exact ways I bolded in your statement.

I don't disagree with you, per say, but I do believe the human/human aspect is not nearly as noble as it's cracked up to be.

it probably really isn't as noble (there totally is some form of romanticizing going on as well) as some make it up to be, but this trying to get as equal as possible with our partners is a sort of "golden standard" some of us zoo-exclusives strive for. we don't get to have that or some of the little things a "normal human/human" relationships have. so i dare say "we" are simply trying to get as close to that as possible if that makes any sense.

baiting and/or condoning similar abuse of basic instincts for purely self-gratification shits all over that, it's simple as that. at least to me.

 

[HugDoggy]

Turn on the option where your vote is publicly visible and you'll see that the majority of people who voted ''no'' are Lurkers or tourists. While the majority who voted ''yes'' are long time members here who know what they're talking about.

I'm assuming only the creator of the poll can turn such a thing on for the poll they created, but just out of interest where is this option located? I just had a quick look at one of my polls and couldn't see any check box or radio button for such a thing in the edit poll setting dialogue box. Or is it only available when you very first create the poll?

 

[FloofyNewfie]

Turn on the option where your vote is publicly visible and you'll see that the majority of people who voted ''no'' are Lurkers or tourists. While the majority who voted ''yes'' are long time members here who know what they're talking about.

I'm assuming only the creator of the poll can turn such a thing on for the poll they created, but just out of interest where is this option located? I just had a quick look at one of my polls and couldn't see any check box or radio button for such a thing in the edit poll setting dialogue box. Or is it only available when you very first create the poll?

Looking at the edit options, I don't seem to have the ability to change the poll type to public. But I do know that to change the poll type from public to anonymous, I have to first wipe the current poll results and then change it. More than likely the same thing applies here, but the opposite. I'd have to wipe the current tally and then switch it to public.

 

[Dogdaddy69]

it probably really isn't as noble (there totally is some form of romanticizing going on as well) as some make it up to be, but this trying to get as equal as possible with our partners is a sort of "golden standard" some of us zoo-exclusives strive for. we don't get to have that or some of the little things a "normal human/human" relationships have. so i dare say "we" are simply trying to get as close to that as possible if that makes any sense.

baiting and/or condoning similar abuse of basic instincts for purely self-gratification shits all over that, it's simple as that. at least to me.

I was talking about the supposed nobility of human relationships, nothing more, nothing less. As a "golden standard" that's a pretty shitty comparison in my opinion. Humans are toxic as fuck in a lot of situations. I get what you're trying to say, but as a role model, it's a pretty shitty one.