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I am very scared of the vegan movement, they will try to take our right away to have companion animals.

Zoo50 you are wrong. Your food was once alive too. If you eat beans they were once alive. I hate to use this as a point but even in the Bible it tells us what meats to eat.
Nature is a cruel thing where every animal will eat the other animal. if we humans are in the wrong place say lion territory and a lion happens to want to kill us to eat us then there is no wrong. We just became part of the food chain. If we kill a cow and eat it there is no wrong the cow was part of the food chain. And so forth. Just because you want to preach your "I'm better than you" rhetoric does not make you right. You may want to think of animals that are raised for the food industry as worthy of your fight against their slaughter as individuals with a right to live. And you may want to think of the food industry and all of it's many millions employed as evil murders, BUT Keep in mind that is your opinion. While I respect your right to your opinion I do not respect it enough to allow you to say people that have opinions that are far different from your own are murders, do not love animals, or are stubborn to not stop eating meat.
Furthermore I am just as stubborn in my opinion as you are in your opinion. We will never see eye to eye on this. Going back and forth is really a waste of time because of that.
What you say is morally wrong is in your eyes but not in mine. I don't think or believe as you do and I am not willing to change to your way because I do not feel anything I do is wrong.

You say you love animals right? So did you donate to any animal charities last year? If you truly love animals you would be supporting at least one animal charity. One of the animal charities that I support is Vet Ranch. They do so much that it is unbelievable. Look them up and send them a few dollars. Unless you are supporting your love of animals by giving to a different animal charity.
 
SkawdtDawg said:
Really? I think you have it backwards. Food like rice, beans, pasta, grains, legumes, potatoes, vegetables, etc. are super cheap--much cheaper than animal products.
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What you fail to mention is that you won't get all your essential amino acids from these foods alone.

Rice is low in Lyzine. Beans are low in Tryptophan and Methionine. Most grains are low in Lysine and Methionine, and, to a lesser degree, Threonine, Leucine and Histidine. Legumes are low in Methionine. Potatoes are low in Methionine or Isoleucine. Lysine, Threonine, Methionine, and Tryptophan are the hardest to obtain from plant-based sources. Without these, you risk Hypoproteinemia.
 
Zoo50 said:
Also, what you said about feral hogs isn't true.
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It's fact and it's in the video.
Zoo50 said:
This is an idiotic argument -- the best thing to do is to not eat meat, because it means slaughter operations are not being supported financially, which means people stop breeding cows/pigs to be slaughtered. In other words, not eating meat is more ethical (environmentally) than eating meat.
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It was a small family farm, so no slaughtering operations were used, we processed the meat ourselves. I haven't gotten store bought meat in over 2 years, so I'm doing my part by not supporting the agricultural industry. Also I need to point it out since I'm talking to a vegan, I was being sarcastic when I said the "not all heroes wear capes," thing.
 
Zoo50 said:
Also, what you said about feral hogs isn't true.
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It's actually understated. I live among them every day. I am required by government regulation to hunt them. 1 adult boar can destroy up to $20k of crop every year. Oh, and did you miss the part about them eating 1 of my neighbors?
 
HyperWoof said:
Want to know what happens to meat when its dropped off a cliff in the form of a 2000lb animal? its guts, stool, liver sauce and stomach acid are going to be intermixed throughout its entire chest cavity.
When you're gutting game, if you even nick the intestinal tract of an animal you can ruin a large amount of the meat.

No... they arent "using every single part of the buffalo" At most they are using the head, hide and quartering the hind.
There is no way of efficiently using a herd of buffalo that you pushed off a fucking cliff lol
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Got a source to back that up? Not that I particularly care, but I don’t usually trust people who can’t format sentences properly.
 
Wolf2 said:
Got a source to back that up? Not that I particularly care, but I don’t usually trust people who can’t format sentences properly.
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You need a source to tell you that meat from a 2000lb animal will be ruined after falling off a cliff? hmm
books.google.ca

Animals and Nature

In this book, Rod Preece takes issue with the popular but simplistic view that the Western cultural tradition has encouraged attitudes of domination and exploitation toward the natural world, particularly animals. he contends that the much-maligned Western tradition has far more to commend it...
books.google.ca

books.google.ca

The Comanche

Known as excellent horsemen, the Comanche were a warlike plains culture who inhabited the are of north Texas, western Oklahoma, and southwest Kansas.
books.google.ca

books.google.ca

Indians, Animals, and the Fur Trade

Exploring the motivations of Indians involved in the fur trade, the contributors to this volume challenge the spiritualist interpretation set forth by Calvin Martin in Keepers of the Game, which dismisses the lure of European goods--the power and leisure that firearms and other tools afforded...
books.google.ca

You're in luck, I came well replied for that response.
 
Already tried wholeheartedly to go vegan and it fucked my health without lube. So if Aluzky 2.0 wants to yell at me for wanting to live then so be it, years as a vegan and what did it get me? Dental issues despite being somewhat obsessive about brushing, liver problems, KIDNEY STONES which were very fun to pass, erectile issues, anemic, gut health was completely nonexistent and my mental health began to suffer. And like my neighbor’s wife I tried everything under the sun short of grazing in a damn field with horses and cows.

And technically I’m already killer though this was in self defense. In my 20s I confronted an intruder that broke into my parents house, got into a fight with the guy and was able use the knife he was wielding against him. I was cut up pretty bad and so was he, he didn’t make it. So @Zoo50, I decided I wanted to live, I want my lover to live as I care deeply about her and her well being. If that bothers you then fine. Try not to suggest a little zoophilia murder/suicide, I’ve heard that shit before from “zoo vegans.”
 
knotinterested said:
Hey vegetables go good with every meat dish I've ever had - so I'm half way on your side
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My folks always told me to, "pick out 2 vegies," when I was younger and we had any meat products for supper. Carried that over when I moved out and am eager to get my own greenhouse set up someday to grow my own vegies.
 
HyperWoof said:
You need a source to tell you that meat from a 2000lb animal will be ruined after falling off a cliff? hmm
books.google.ca

Animals and Nature

In this book, Rod Preece takes issue with the popular but simplistic view that the Western cultural tradition has encouraged attitudes of domination and exploitation toward the natural world, particularly animals. he contends that the much-maligned Western tradition has far more to commend it...
books.google.ca

books.google.ca

The Comanche

Known as excellent horsemen, the Comanche were a warlike plains culture who inhabited the are of north Texas, western Oklahoma, and southwest Kansas.
books.google.ca

books.google.ca

Indians, Animals, and the Fur Trade

Exploring the motivations of Indians involved in the fur trade, the contributors to this volume challenge the spiritualist interpretation set forth by Calvin Martin in Keepers of the Game, which dismisses the lure of European goods--the power and leisure that firearms and other tools afforded...
books.google.ca

You're in luck, I came well replied for that response.
Click to expand...

You actually didn’t. You listed several books, making you seem educated and like you’ve read them, when in realty you probably just did a quick google search. You have not backed up the claim that animals are virtually unusable after being dropped over a cliff.
 
Wolf2 said:
You actually didn’t. You listed several books, making you seem educated and like you’ve read them, when in realty you probably just did a quick google search. You have not backed up the claim that animals are virtually unusable after being dropped over a cliff.
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Click on the links dum dum, it takes you to the section where accounts of such strategies are discussed
 
Wolf2 said:
You actually didn’t. You listed several books, making you seem educated and like you’ve read them, when in realty you probably just did a quick google search. You have not backed up the claim that animals are virtually unusable after being dropped over a cliff.
Click to expand...
Okay. Let's try a different tack. Have you ever seen an animal after it was hit by a truck on the highway? I remember having to clean up a 120 yard long cow 1 time. How much of that do you think was usable?
 
knotinterested said:
I don't think the vegan argument will every end. Nor do I think that the consumption of meat is going to end. And I'll add that I don't think the production of meat for market is going to ever end.
The one thing I have noticed throughout this thread is that the vegans are not able to respect those of us that eat meat. While we on the other hand have tried to say that it is fine for you to do what you want but we're not wrong for what we do. Then we are attacked, told we don't love animals, called hypocrites, and tried to be made ashamed. This is the way vegans treat others? I wouldn't want any part of being vegan just because of that! I wouldn't want to be associated with that type of behavior. So go ahead and criticize me.
The way the vegans - not all but too many treat others has made me even more determined to remain a meat eater for the rest of my life.
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I had a good laugh at the TV a few months ago with a short news article where a scientist from CSIRO who had identified a decreased intelligence associated with Veganism stated the only factor they had not yet defined as to when the decrease had occurred.

It was a science based insult using hard data.
 
SkawdtDawg said:
This isn't true. Only some pasta has eggs in it.
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Kind of contradictory sentences there. It would have made more sense to say, "that's true, but it's also true that there's pasta made without eggs."
SkawdtDawg said:
Only some pasta has eggs in it.
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I also wouldn't say "some." As someone that has bounced around working at major chain grocery stores and one of the 2 whole foods here after high school, I can say that there are far more pastas out there that have eggs in them than ones that don't.
 
SkawdtDawg said:
"Salads contain meat. Vegans don't eat meat."
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Normal people don't immediately think of salads containing meat unless they're called a chef's salad or tuna salad, but that one doesn't really contain salad stuff, so we'll let the chicken of the sea slide out of this one. Also, the "vegans don't eat meat" part of that statement would be true.
 
knotinterested said:
Zoo50 you are wrong. Your food was once alive too. If you eat beans they were once alive. I hate to use this as a point but even in the Bible it tells us what meats to eat.
Nature is a cruel thing where every animal will eat the other animal. if we humans are in the wrong place say lion territory and a lion happens to want to kill us to eat us then there is no wrong. We just became part of the food chain. If we kill a cow and eat it there is no wrong the cow was part of the food chain. And so forth. Just because you want to preach your "I'm better than you" rhetoric does not make you right. You may want to think of animals that are raised for the food industry as worthy of your fight against their slaughter as individuals with a right to live. And you may want to think of the food industry and all of it's many millions employed as evil murders, BUT Keep in mind that is your opinion. While I respect your right to your opinion I do not respect it enough to allow you to say people that have opinions that are far different from your own are murders, do not love animals, or are stubborn to not stop eating meat.
Furthermore I am just as stubborn in my opinion as you are in your opinion. We will never see eye to eye on this. Going back and forth is really a waste of time because of that.
What you say is morally wrong is in your eyes but not in mine. I don't think or believe as you do and I am not willing to change to your way because I do not feel anything I do is wrong.

You say you love animals right? So did you donate to any animal charities last year? If you truly love animals you would be supporting at least one animal charity. One of the animal charities that I support is Vet Ranch. They do so much that it is unbelievable. Look them up and send them a few dollars. Unless you are supporting your love of animals by giving to a different animal charity.
Click to expand...

I can't believe you're comparing sentient, complex conscious beings (such as pigs, humans, dogs, etc.) to plants and beans -- that is ridiculous. Plants can't feel pain/suffering the way animals do, and they don't have consciousness, a brain, or a nervous system.

What the Bible says is irrelevant -- it's just the musings of monks from thousands of years ago (i.e. archaic).

Yes, humans can be part of the food chain in the wild -- but remember that animals such as lions don't understand morality, therefore what they do is not morally wrong. Humans have a choice to not kill animals -- and, since humans understand complex things like morality, they can decide to do the least harm (meaning, not killing living beings).

You are stubborn because you are refusing to acknowledge that harming an animal is not necessary, and slaughter obviously involves harm. As I said earlier, you probably wouldn't want to see a human killed, and you probably wouldn't want to see a dog killed -- so what makes killing a pig or a cow acceptable then?
 
Zoo50 said:
I can't believe you're comparing sentient, complex conscious beings (such as pigs, humans, dogs, etc.) to plants and beans -- that is ridiculous. Plants can't feel pain/suffering the way animals do, and they don't have consciousness, a brain, or a nervous system.

What the Bible says is irrelevant -- it's just the musings of monks from thousands of years ago (i.e. archaic).

Yes, humans can be part of the food chain in the wild -- but remember that animals such as lions don't understand morality, therefore what they do is not morally wrong. Humans have a choice to not kill animals -- and, since humans understand complex things like morality, they can decide to do the least harm (meaning, not killing living beings).

You are stubborn because you are refusing to acknowledge that harming an animal is not necessary, and slaughter obviously involves harm. As I said earlier, you probably wouldn't want to see a human killed, and you probably wouldn't want to see a dog killed -- so what makes killing a pig or a cow acceptable then?
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A plant is a living thing. BTW they do have a nervous system. I'm not comparing I'm only saying that you too must kill something in order to eat.

I don't have a problem killing something and eating it no more than any animal has a problem with it. I do not consider a cow or a pig or goat to be on the same level as a human. The practice of eating meat, or animals, harvesting their hides for other uses, and even more uses since other ways have been discovered, this practice has been going on ever since man was on this planet. There is nothing wrong with it. There is no moral complication. And you are entitled to your opinion just as I am.
 
knotinterested said:
A plant is a living thing. BTW they do have a nervous system. I'm not comparing I'm only saying that you too must kill something in order to eat.

I don't have a problem killing something and eating it no more than any animal has a problem with it. I do not consider a cow or a pig or goat to be on the same level as a human. The practice of eating meat, or animals, harvesting their hides for other uses, and even more uses since other ways have been discovered, this practice has been going on ever since man was on this planet. There is nothing wrong with it. There is no moral complication. And you are entitled to your opinion just as I am.
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Regarding the sentence I highlighted in bold -- that is a speciesist statement -- meaning, you value human life more than non-human life, which is wrong. Humans are morally equal to other living beings, such as pigs and cows. A cow has a right to live, in the same way that a human has a right to live. The reason for this is that both cows and humans have an interest in living, and both cows and humans have an interest in not experiencing pain and suffering.

(The word "speciesism" generally means treating beings differently based on their species membership -- it is a form of discrimination, and in this case, it is about "human supremacy". You ought to stop being a speciesist and realize that non-humans are worthy of moral value in the same way that humans are.)

You ought to think about why you have speciesist views, and consider getting rid of those prejudices. Why do you think humans are above other species? (Which is, by the way, an asinine view).

Also, you are wrong. It doesn't matter how long humans have been doing something. Just because humans have been doing something a long time doesn't make it right. And as I said earlier, killing an animal (for slaughter, hunting, etc.) is wrong, and "using" (exploiting) their dead bodies is wrong as well.
 
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Zoo50 said:
Humans are morally equal to other living beings
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I have no problem with that. Which is why I'm willing to put myself out there to fuck or be fucked, kill or be killed. In fact, I'd rather make my exit the old fashion way. That means being eaten by some hungry animal.
 
Zoo50 said:
Regarding the sentence I highlighted in bold -- that is a speciesist statement -- meaning, you value human life more than non-human life, which is wrong. Humans are morally equal to other living beings, such as pigs and cows. A cow has a right to live, in the same way that a human has a right to live. The reason for this is that both cows and humans have an interest in living, and both cows and humans have an interest in not experiencing pain and suffering.

(The word "speciesism" generally means treating beings differently based on their species membership -- it is a form of discrimination, and in this case, it is about "human supremacy". You ought to stop being a speciesist and realize that non-humans are worthy of moral value in the same way that humans are.)

You ought to think about why you have speciesist views, and consider getting rid of those prejudices. Why do you think humans are above other species? (Which is, by the way, an asinine view).

Also, you are wrong. It doesn't matter how long humans have been doing something. Just because humans have been doing something a long time doesn't make it right. And as I said earlier, killing an animal (for slaughter, hunting, etc.) is wrong, and "using" (exploiting) their dead bodies is wrong as well.
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I do value human life much higher than any animal life. But that is not without saying that I value some animals as higher in value then other animals. I'm not a speciesist - I'm a realist. When I can hire a horse to ride out on the range and herd in my cows then I will view them the same as the cowhands that do the job. When I can hire a pig to bale the hey or feed the other animals then I will place more value on them.
Just because something is alive you can not view it in the same way as other living things. It is not the same. The value is not the same either.

In my opinion you are very wrong. You would be best in a community of monks who view many things the same as you do. They will just brush aside the cockroach that is crawling around the edge of their plate of corn mesh porage. They don't kill anything either. You would fit right in.

I brought up the Bible because it is one of the oldest documents regarding how men should live. YOU immediately dismiss it and say only that it is irrelevant. In fact everything I say is irrelevant to you. This is because you are so stubborn and set in your own way that you think you can disrespect what others say because it is not in line with your closed minded opinion.

I'm sure that you too are guilty of using animal products some where in your current life. Animal products are in almost everything so it would almost be impossible to not have something today that has animal products in it.

However with all that said I am getting hungry. I love talking to you so much because when I sit down to eat my steak dinner it will be so much sweeter.
 
caikgoch said:
Okay. Let's try a different tack. Have you ever seen an animal after it was hit by a truck on the highway? I remember having to clean up a 120 yard long cow 1 time. How much of that do you think was usable?
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Have you done the math and verified that a truck ramming an animal at 65 MPH is the same as a buffalo falling from a cliff? I would imagine the physics to be at least a little bit different. In order to calculate the speed a falling object drops however, you have to use calculus, which becomes tricky. I took calculus in college, did you graduate high school?
 
Wolf2 said:
Have you done the math and verified that a truck ramming an animal at 65 MPH is the same as a buffalo falling from a cliff? I would imagine the physics to be at least a little bit different. In order to calculate the speed a falling object drops however, you have to use calculus, which becomes tricky. I took calculus in college, did you graduate high school?
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In what universe? v=sqrt2gd isn't calculus, which I took in grade school.
 
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