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I am very scared of the vegan movement, they will try to take our right away to have companion animals.

caikgoch said:
Whamo Presto, it's done! Now, all of those animals are wandering out there, wild and free. Do you believe that they are NOT going to breed for their own reasons? Even one breeding pair and a permanent no kill order will inevitably lead to overpopulation.
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You don't get that veganism is a slow transition, do you? Each person who goes vegan decreases the demand for animal products a little less. If veganism is never mandated then it will affect the farm animal populations slowly. No releasing all the farm animals all at once. And who said anything about letting them back into the wild to breed more? They can be sterilized and kept safe by humans until they disappear entirely.

And if not all farm animals can be kept safe, as that may or may not be realistic in the future, I'm fine with them being euthanized. Better than them being beaten and raped in farms.
 
ashamedmisanthrope said:
They can be sterilized and kept safe by humans until they disappear entirely.
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ashamedmisanthrope said:
And if not all farm animals can be kept safe, as that may or may not be realistic in the future, I'm fine with them being euthanized. Better than them being beaten and raped in farms.
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And you have just proven the thesis of the OP, you are trying to take away our right to have animals for whatever reason.
 
I had said:
Sorry guys but I tried the vegetarian thing for 2 years and went back to eating meat a year ago. I have lots more energy, sleep better at night, and have clearer skin. Plus I don't have near as many headaches even though I have a more stressful job now. I feel much healthier now.
It may offend you but as for me I'll be a meat eater the rest of my life.

Zoo50 said:
Your attitude is a selfish one -- you shouldn't think about your own interests alone, and you ought to consider the interests of non-human animals. If you truly care about the well-being of other animals, then you should stop eating meat. Saying "I sleep better" is a selfish attitude -- the life of an animal is more important than one's sleep. Also, I'm not convinced that your diet is entirely the reason for poor sleep and lack of energy. As I said, people can be vegan / vegetarian and be healthy at the same time. I think you're just making excuses to keep eating meat.
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People like you piss me off. You didn't listen to anything I said. You call me selfish when I had said I tried going without meat in my diet for over 2 years. I gave it a try so how is that selfish? And You're not convinced? Who the hell are you? Fuck off!
All of those things that were not so good in my life changed immediately when I changed my diet back to include meat. Nothing else changed. The fact is that my body improved almost overnight when I returned meat to my diet.
You think I am just making excuses to keep eating meat? So you would sentence me to a life filled with headaches, low energy, and someone that does not sleep well at night. Again who the fuck do you think you are? Some God of infinite wisdom? You condemn someone that gives it a try, and a good try for 2 years and when it fails to work they return to eating meat. You don't even consider that I tried, You just say I am making excuses to keep eating meat.
Why don't you try listening to the things people say instead of being so narrow minded and acting like you are superior?
 
1KnottyGirl said:
I had said:
Sorry guys but I tried the vegetarian thing for 2 years and went back to eating meat a year ago. I have lots more energy, sleep better at night, and have clearer skin. Plus I don't have near as many headaches even though I have a more stressful job now. I feel much healthier now.
It may offend you but as for me I'll be a meat eater the rest of my life.



People like you piss me off. You didn't listen to anything I said. You call me selfish when I had said I tried going without meat in my diet for over 2 years. I gave it a try so how is that selfish? And You're not convinced? Who the hell are you? Fuck off!
All of those things that were not so good in my life changed immediately when I changed my diet back to include meat. Nothing else changed. The fact is that my body improved almost overnight when I returned meat to my diet.
You think I am just making excuses to keep eating meat? So you would sentence me to a life filled with headaches, low energy, and someone that does not sleep well at night. Again who the fuck do you think you are? Some God of infinite wisdom? You condemn someone that gives it a try, and a good try for 2 years and when it fails to work they return to eating meat. You don't even consider that I tried, You just say I am making excuses to keep eating meat.
Why don't you try listening to the things people say instead of being so narrow minded and acting like you are superior?
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He's the sole arbiter of all that is moral, proper, and good. Sheesh, can't you figure that out, you stupid, selfish, unethical meat-eating moron???

(In case the reader can't figure it out for him/herself, that was deliberate over-the-top sarcasm - but those of you who have the smarts to read for comprehension probably figured that out before reaching the end of the sentence)
 
SkawdtDawg said:
I think it's great that you gave it a try. That's more than most! There isn't really anything special in animal products that can't be found in plants, though. Sometimes when people try a plant-based diet, they inadvertently starve themselves for calories or eat combinations of foods that don't get them all the nutrition they need--or maybe too much sugar or salt.

I'm pretty confident that with some adjustments a plant-based diet would work for you again if you ever change your mind. Maybe this free resource would help you: https://challenge22.com (Note, the site seems to be momentarily busy.) You can get advice from nutritionists through that site and explain the problems you were having. I'll try to post some more resources here if I find them, and be supportive of those who tried. It can be difficult knowing what plant-based foods to eat when we live in a world run by meat-eaters, so I realize it must have been frustrating putting in the effort and not feeling well.
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I tried for 2 years. Near the end of that I went to the doctor and then after that I visited a nutritionist and tried several so called solutions. Nothing did any good at all. The problems developed slowly over the first year I was on the meat free diet. They didn't change even after beginning a regiment of different vitamins and nutrient supplements. I didn't know what the problems was and because of it I was also more irritable and not a happy person. I went to see professional help and did what they said but that didn't help either.
I had never related my problems to being meat free until one day when I on my own decided to have a steak at a restaurant. Later that day I felt better than I had in a very long time. I still didn't relate it but when I started feeling like I had two days later as a kind of experiment I had another steak. It was like taking a magic pill. I had energy, and I again felt great. That night I sleep better than I had in over a year. The next day I again had steak and again noticed a pick up in my energy and a general good feeling too. No headaches at all and up until then I always had a mild headache. Over the next week I noticed other things like my skin clearing up, and tons more energy to do things that had been wearing me out. I am certain that meat was directly responsible for these changes. That makes me a believer in the fact that we do need meat in our diet.
I know you can buy all the same nutrients but maybe the fact of how your body has to dissolve the meat and it taking longer makes meat a better choice for where you get those nutrients from. Anyway maybe you understand why I choose to eat meat now a days.
 
I did vegan for 6 months. Not for me. That’s saying a lot considering I have been hunting since I could hold a shotgun. It fits some more then others .
I have had people tell me it’s cruel and not right to kill your food, but no one asks the hyena that eats a buffalo ass first while it’s still alive the same question.
 
SkawdtDawg said:
I applaud you for trying, anyway--and for a long period of time, and also getting professional help. I don't know what would make meat different, but if your body really does require meat, at least you have a valid excuse. Most people don't. Hopefully lab-grown meat will be a reality soon so at least animals won't have to be slaughtered to make it anymore--at that point eating meat would no longer be a moral decision, but purely a personal one.

Ironically, I had anemia before I went vegan. I used to bruise easily and would get dizzy if I stood up for too long. But, that went away after a few months of changing my diet. After nearly 20 years of having no animal products in my diet at all, I still feel pretty healthy and my stats and blood tests are better than average for people my age. So far none of the detrimental things that people warned me would happen to my health have shown up.

Even my dog was on a plant-based diet for over 15 years, and he lived to be almost 20 before he died in an accident. The vets always complimented me on how well he looked for his age and how good his blood test results were. I'll try to post something here if I find anything that I think would be helpful to your situation.



Thanks for trying. I'd point out that a hyena can't understand human speech, doesn't have as much of a moral compass as does a human, and has no choice but to eat other animals in order to live. People like to point out that humans are better than animals. One of the things humans have is a stronger capacity to make decisions that consider the well-being of others and the ability to make choices that cause the least amount of suffering. But, if humans don't use that trait, they are no better than the animals in that regard.
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I respect that. I eat at least 40% game animals. All I have to put the time in to get and I do my best to make sure they don’t know what happened when I take the shot.
 
ashamedmisanthrope said:
You don't get that veganism is a slow transition, do you? Each person who goes vegan decreases the demand for animal products a little less. If veganism is never mandated then it will affect the farm animal populations slowly. No releasing all the farm animals all at once. And who said anything about letting them back into the wild to breed more? They can be sterilized and kept safe by humans until they disappear entirely.

And if not all farm animals can be kept safe, as that may or may not be realistic in the future, I'm fine with them being euthanized. Better than them being beaten and raped in farms.
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This is the whole unavoidable outcome of veganism. The more animals that eat food the more competition for humans food. So less animals is better for humans. Then there are the radicals that don't want horse racing or sniffer dogs or pet dogs as it is all humans dominating the lesser species.

Animals are a transportable food source. So most of the world cannot go vegan as storing and moving crops requires massive infrastructure.

Australia has just had 2,000,000,000 animals burn in bush fires or die due to lack of vegetation in their home range.

Farm animals were able to move or be moved out of the reach of the fire.

It would be interesting too work out how Veganism would survive a 2 year drought. It would require massive infrastructure to ensure food sources were drought tolerant.
 
1KnottyGirl said:
I had never related my problems to being meat free until one day when I on my own decided to have a steak at a restaurant. Later that day I felt better than I had in a very long time. I still didn't relate it but when I started feeling like I had two days later as a kind of experiment I had another steak. It was like taking a magic pill. I had energy, and I again felt great. That night I sleep better than I had in over a year. The next day I again had steak and again noticed a pick up in my energy and a general good feeling too. No headaches at all and up until then I always had a mild headache. Over the next week I noticed other things like my skin clearing up, and tons more energy to do things that had been wearing me out. I am certain that meat was directly responsible for these changes. That makes me a believer in the fact that we do need meat in our diet.
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YMMV and all that, but I do wonder if this is the whole truth. Normally the body doesn't respond that well to drastic changes, and I'd wager eating meat after 2 years of not eating meat would be pretty drastic considering your body has had to have at least adapted somewhat.
 
Coolboyman said:
For those who don't know, there is something called the animal rights movement. Their goal is to abolish all meat, pets and bring domestic animals to extinction. They are a cult group and use fear and manipulation to get people to join them.

This makes me extremely anxious. I have never been good with people due to mental illness, I cannot hold a job at all, but am given disability money. My pet girl rabbit is the only way I'm motivated to live.

Ive been a zoo my whole life since 13 and I'm 20 years old now, but am only interested in female bunnies and recently performed oral sex on my Flemish giant rabbit. She has shown no displeasure and is snuggling right beside me right now and giving kisses and waiting to be pet. This feeling is far better than anything Ive ever felt my whole life.

If vegans managed to take my right to own pets, then I will have no motivation to live. I need the companionship of a female rabbit to survive.

Is anyone else afraid of these people? I needed to ask this because I am dead scared of this movement gaining power and momentum. It would be great to hear your feelings on this issue.
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hi, I am vegan and i am against pet ownership.. Because i believe it's a very toxic relationship that take away independence and freedom of the animals on an individual, systemic and genetic level..

Now, as for your concerns, you should worry more about the real threat to your life with your rabbit companion, they are everywhere around you, much more judgmental than i'll ever be and they are not vegans..

These ppl would gladly take your companion away, put the both of you in cages for years with a bonus castration for you and no right to ever own a pet..
These ppl are normal right wing ppl and there is about 13 of them for any given vegan..
All the while these ppl enjoy hunting and have nothing against slaughtering animals, animals being castrated and arms shoved into their holes for the glory of the all powerful and all justified exploitation.

Do you know why? Because they like meat, because they believe it's natural for us to do that to the world?

I am open to any dialogue, they're not, they are the ideologues with ridiculous and biased moral standards.. They hate you and what you are much more than any vegan will ever do
 
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Beastfight said:
hi, I am vegan and i am against pet ownership.. Because i believe it's a very toxic relationship that take away independence and freedom of the animals on an individual, systemic and genetic level..

Now, as for your concerns, you should worry more about the real threat to your life with your rabbit companion, they are everywhere around you, much more judgmental than i'll ever be and they are not vegans..

These ppl would gladly take your companion away, put the both of you in cages for years with a bonus castration for you and no right to ever own a pet..
These ppl are normal right wing ppl and there is about 13 of them for any given vegan..
All the while these ppl enjoy hunting and have nothing against slaughtering animals, animals being castrated and arms shoved into their holes for the glory of the all powerful and all justified exploitation.

Do you know why? Because they like meat, because they believe it's natural for us to do that to the world?

I am open to any dialogue, they're not, they are the ideologues with ridiculous and biased moral standards.. They hate you and what you are much more than any vegan will ever do
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You’re against pet ownership but joined a site where people have pets and enjoy fucking them. Nice.
 
SkawdtDawg said:
This isn't true. Only some pasta has eggs in it. I eat plenty of pasta, none of which has eggs in it.



Sorry to hear this. Many peoples' experiences are different. Your diet could have been tweaked so foods which weren't working for you would be replaced with others that do. I wouldn't blame lack of animal products, rather a lack of some nutrient which could have been found in a plant-based source. Usually when vegan diets fail it's because of things like consuming too much sugar and not enough fiber from juicing fruit, or starving for calories, etc. But it's really hard to say without knowing detailed information about your former vegan diet. We also have plenty of cases where ailments were cured by removing animal products. Certainly a blood test would have helped identify which nutrients were lacking.

I wouldn't fault you for killing a human or animal in self-defense. This is what would be called justified killing. The problem vegans have is killing for a reason such as someone liking the taste.
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That’s the thing. I tweaked my diet well over several times and tried several different variations and the only results I got were me getting sicker and sicker.
 
knotinterested said:
I do value human life much higher than any animal life. But that is not without saying that I value some animals as higher in value then other animals. I'm not a speciesist - I'm a realist. When I can hire a horse to ride out on the range and herd in my cows then I will view them the same as the cowhands that do the job. When I can hire a pig to bale the hey or feed the other animals then I will place more value on them.
Just because something is alive you can not view it in the same way as other living things. It is not the same. The value is not the same either.

In my opinion you are very wrong. You would be best in a community of monks who view many things the same as you do. They will just brush aside the cockroach that is crawling around the edge of their plate of corn mesh porage. They don't kill anything either. You would fit right in.

I brought up the Bible because it is one of the oldest documents regarding how men should live. YOU immediately dismiss it and say only that it is irrelevant. In fact everything I say is irrelevant to you. This is because you are so stubborn and set in your own way that you think you can disrespect what others say because it is not in line with your closed minded opinion.

I'm sure that you too are guilty of using animal products some where in your current life. Animal products are in almost everything so it would almost be impossible to not have something today that has animal products in it.

However with all that said I am getting hungry. I love talking to you so much because when I sit down to eat my steak dinner it will be so much sweeter.
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Yes, you are a speciesist. I don't think you understand what the word "speciesism" means.

Also, you are wrong. The moral value of a cow or a pig is the same as the moral value of a human, in terms of basic interests, such as the interest in not being killed (an interest shared among humans, pigs, cows, dogs, etc.) Assigning moral value to non-humans doesn't mean, for example, that non-humans have a right to vote -- it just means being aware of what their interests are and respecting those interests. Eating meat does not respect an animal's interests.

It is wrong for you to view humans as having more value than non-humans -- that basically is the definition of speciesism (a discriminatory prejudice).

1KnottyGirl said:
People like you piss me off. You didn't listen to anything I said. You call me selfish when I had said I tried going without meat in my diet for over 2 years. I gave it a try so how is that selfish? And You're not convinced? Who the hell are you? Fuck off!
All of those things that were not so good in my life changed immediately when I changed my diet back to include meat. Nothing else changed. The fact is that my body improved almost overnight when I returned meat to my diet.
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Well people like you piss me off. You are offended that I call you selfish, but then you go on to talk about selfish interests (such as how your body functions, which is a selfish interest). You ought to think about the interests of other beings, not just what benefits yourself. The life of a pig or a cow is more important than "how you feel". Besides, a vegan diet is healthier than a meat-eating diet anyway.

I am not criticizing the fact that you tried to stop eating meat -- I am criticizing the fact that you went back to eating meat, because you should have continued to not eat meat. Yes, you tried (to stop eating meat), but you should try again.

Bloodwolf said:
I did vegan for 6 months. Not for me. That’s saying a lot considering I have been hunting since I could hold a shotgun. It fits some more then others .
I have had people tell me it’s cruel and not right to kill your food, but no one asks the hyena that eats a buffalo ass first while it’s still alive the same question.
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Hyenas don't have a choice for what to eat, whereas humans do. Stop comparing what happens in nature with what humans do -- humans understand morality, non-human animals don't. Humans can make the ethical choice of not eating any meat.
 
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Wow....this is one of the most heated debates I have read in a very long time. I find it fascinating that the very extreme views of each side of this debate cannot seem to fathom why the other side believes the way it does. Personally, I do not understand the absolute staunch belief of people like Zoo50 have (not to single you out....you are just very vocal) and yet have zero tolerance for other's opinions. I do not feel that any opinion should be silenced - we all have them and should speak out about what we believe. However, speaking out to the EXCLUSION of any other opinion than your own is just intolerance pure and simple. THAT is what I do not believe in.

That being said....if you don't agree with me - I am completely accepting of that. I will continue to enjoy my hamburgers on one day and a delicious salad on another and go on with my life without feeling any guilt what-so-ever. Why? Because that is how I feel.
 
mavericksboy said:
Wow....this is one of the most heated debates I have read in a very long time. I find it fascinating that the very extreme views of each side of this debate cannot seem to fathom why the other side believes the way it does. Personally, I do not understand the absolute staunch belief of people like Zoo50 have (not to single you out....you are just very vocal) and yet have zero tolerance for other's opinions. I do not feel that any opinion should be silenced - we all have them and should speak out about what we believe. However, speaking out to the EXCLUSION of any other opinion than your own is just intolerance pure and simple. THAT is what I do not believe in.

That being said....if you don't agree with me - I am completely accepting of that. I will continue to enjoy my hamburgers on one day and a delicious salad on another and go on with my life without feeling any guilt what-so-ever. Why? Because that is how I feel.
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Uh-oh - Now ya gone and done it - yer gonna get one of zoo50's patented angry-face stickers. tsk-tsk-tsk.... naughty boy.
 
Black_Unicorn said:
This is the whole unavoidable outcome of veganism. The more animals that eat food the more competition for humans food. So less animals is better for humans. Then there are the radicals that don't want horse racing or sniffer dogs or pet dogs as it is all humans dominating the lesser species.
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Ok, so when I first read this comment, I thought you were concurring. Apparently you realize "the more animals that eat food the more competition for humans food," and, that's why veganism is *bad?*

Meat is an incredibly inefficient food source. You ever notice that there are more rabbits than hawks? That's because eating the plants rather than eating the animals that eat the plants allows a population to grow more. Look up "food chain energy transfer" to learn about how food chains work. Meat is a middleman, and wasting potential cropland on grazing and growing crops for *cows* to eat (most of the energy the cows receive through food being burned before we kill and eat them) instead of just eating it directly is senseless. Pardon my objectification of farm animals, but they're energy wasting machines ?
Black_Unicorn said:
Animals are a transportable food source. So most of the world cannot go vegan as storing and moving crops requires massive infrastructure.
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Plants are transportable and I imagine they'd be easier to transport in most cases. If you have a citation for animals being easier to transport I'd like to see it.
Black_Unicorn said:
Farm animals were able to move or be moved out of the reach of the fire.
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Are you saying animals had to be moved to the fires because plant food couldn't be moved? If so, I'd like to see a citation for that as well.
Black_Unicorn said:
It would be interesting too work out how Veganism would survive a 2 year drought. It would require massive infrastructure to ensure food sources were drought tolerant.
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The beef and dairy industry has a big impact on climate change, which leads to increased (and worse) drought. Calling back to your previous point, climate change also makes bush fires worse. And veganism saves water.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2212371713000024 (scholarly articles can be accessed via Scihub)

I'd use google scholar to find more. This is what I searched: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=beef+water+footprint&hl=de&as_sdt=0,5

This is the link for Scihub as of 2020: https://mg.scihub.ltd/

What I'm saying is, if you care about droughts and bush fires, you should go vegan.
 
mavericksboy said:
and yet have zero tolerance for other's opinions
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You know, people tend to have less tolerance when torture, murder, and rape are on the line. Silly silly Zoo50.
mavericksboy said:
I do not feel that any opinion should be silenced
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Your opinion wasn't silenced. a vegan disagreeing with you isn't a violation of your free speech, and some opinions are stupid and backwards. You have the right to hold them, but others may criticize them accordingly.
 
mavericksboy said:
Wow....this is one of the most heated debates I have read in a very long time. I find it fascinating that the very extreme views of each side of this debate cannot seem to fathom why the other side believes the way it does. Personally, I do not understand the absolute staunch belief of people like Zoo50 have (not to single you out....you are just very vocal) and yet have zero tolerance for other's opinions. I do not feel that any opinion should be silenced - we all have them and should speak out about what we believe. However, speaking out to the EXCLUSION of any other opinion than your own is just intolerance pure and simple. THAT is what I do not believe in.

That being said....if you don't agree with me - I am completely accepting of that. I will continue to enjoy my hamburgers on one day and a delicious salad on another and go on with my life without feeling any guilt what-so-ever. Why? Because that is how I feel.
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The fact that you are OK with eating hamburgers shows that you really don't care about the interests of animals at all. Eating meat is morally wrong, so therefore what you are doing is morally wrong.

And yes, I'm not tolerant of non-human beings being deprived of their lives, just as I am not tolerant of humans being deprived of their lives. Eating meat supports the slaughter industry, which is an industry that treats animals as objects, not as beings worthy of morality.

As @ashamedmisanthrope said, it's not good to be tolerant of torture and murder, which is basically what happens to animals when they are killed (slaughtered).
 
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caikgoch said:
And you have just proven the thesis of the OP, you are trying to take away our right to have animals for whatever reason.
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No I was responding to a very specific case of the world suddenly going vegan and not being able to take care of all of the animals. A *very specific and unlikely scenario that you guys proposed.* Like, what? I don't want to separate you from your horse or whatever just don't abuse, rape, or eat them.
 
ashamedmisanthrope said:
You know, people tend to have less tolerance when torture, murder, and rape are on the line. Silly silly Zoo50.

Your opinion wasn't silenced. a vegan disagreeing with you isn't a violation of your free speech, and some opinions are stupid and backwards. You have the right to hold them, but others may criticize them accordingly.
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Please do not pull small quotes out of my whole statement and not include the context surrounding it just to support your opinion.
 
Zoo50 said:
The fact that you are OK with eating hamburgers shows that you really don't care about the interests of animals at all. Eating meat is morally wrong, so therefore what you are doing is morally wrong.

And yes, I'm not tolerant of non-human beings being deprives of their lives, just as I am not tolerant of humans being deprived of their lives. Eating meat supports the slaughter industry, which is an industry that treats animals as objects, not as beings worthy of morality.
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But, you see, it is your opinion that eating meat is morally wrong. I do not share that opinion.
 
mavericksboy said:
But, you see, it is your opinion that eating meat is morally wrong. I do not share that opinion.
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Well, you ought to -- if a human has a right to live, then other beings (non-human beings) have a right to live as well. For example, a pig has an interest in not being murdered, not suffering, not being tortured, etc. And when someone refuses to eat meat, they are respecting the animal's interests.

If you don't think this, and if you think that humans are "superior" to non-humans, then you are probably a speciesist.
 
Zoo50 said:
Well, you ought to -- if a human has a right to live, then other beings (non-human beings) have a right to live as well. For example, a pig has an interest in not being murdered, not suffering, not being tortured, etc.

If you don't think this, and if you think that humans are "superior" to non-humans, then you are probably a speciesist.
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I like labels. If you call me a speciesist then I guess I am.

Thank you for your opinions. I am not here to debate you as you will not change your views any more than I will change mine. I simply wanted to state that fact.
 
mavericksboy said:
I like labels. If you call me a speciesist then I guess I am.

Thank you for your opinions. I am not here to debate you as you will not change your views any more than I will change mine. I simply wanted to state that fact.
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So then I guess you are OK with pigs, cows, and other living beings being tortured, murdered, etc.

You really ought to consider why you don't care about an animal's interests, and why you callously consume their dead bodies for your own benefit.
 
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