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I am very scared of the vegan movement, they will try to take our right away to have companion animals.

"Domesticated" is a genetic change. You can't just wake up 1 morning and say "I will no longer express those genes".

i don't think i've ever said that,
When there is a misunderstanding of the opposing position, it's better to ask..

Domestication is gradual.
There is the number of generation you're being enslaved and how useful the skills and strengths that your masters allow you to keep or develop can be to your survival..

Feralisation is a process by which domesticated animals rewild themselves at a genetic and epigenetic level.. It doesn't happen overnight and is gradual too..
 
i don't think i've ever said that,
When there is a misunderstanding of the opposing position, it's better to ask..

Domestication is gradual.
There is the number of generation you're being enslaved and how useful the skills and strengths that your masters allow you to keep or develop can be to your survival..

Feralisation is a process by which domesticated animals rewild themselves at a genetic and epigenetic level.. It doesn't happen overnight and is gradual too..
Now I KNOW you're speaking 100% pure pulled-straight-outta-your-ass SHIT. Not that I didn't think so before, but now that you've flipped that particular turd out for all and sundry to see, all possibility of giving you even the slightest benefit-of-the-doubt consideration as a rational human being just flew out the window on rocket-assist. And with it, your last chance at convincing me you're anything but yet another in a long, long, long line of clueless idiots who have little or no understanding of how things work in the real world, and rely solely on their own little picture of "This is how I think it should be, so that's how it must be", even when reality reaches in and pounds them upside the head repeatedly with the clue-bat.

As such, you cease to be amusing, and join the rest of the morons, self-deluded fools, and obnoxious idiots in the permanent shithead bin.
 
That is vulgar, insulting and not constructive in any way.
I don't care if it's vulgar, it's INTENDED to be insulting, and it's no more or less constructive than the shit being spewed by the retarded fuck it's aimed at. Got a problem with that? Feel free to put it on your TS and hand it to the chaplain - maybe he'll give you some sympathy. You'll get none from me.
 
That is vulgar, insulting and not constructive in any way.

what shocks me the most is that he seems to believe in his ability to judge, how rational, ppl are..

I bet if i asked him what was wrong in what i just said, he'd just say everything instead of listing which logical or factual errors I may have made, where and how..
 
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what shocks me the most is that he seems to believe in his ability to judge, how rational, ppl are..

I bet if i asked him what was wrong in what i just said, he'd just say everything instead of listing which logical or factual errors I may have made, where and how..

Given that none of his posts in this thread contain an argument, but start right off with ridicule and then switch to insults, I am afraid you may be right. At least he is not displaying the capacity for a civil discourse. On the one hand I am a bit sorry for having given him attention here—since the saying goes don't feed the trolls—but on the other hand my experience in life has been that bullies tend to become worse and worse when you don't speak out that they are going too far.

I'm neither vegan nor meat-eater and I'm a pet keeper. I feel like my position is somewhere in the middle of the discussed lifestyles. Looking from this position my impression has been that, although every individual is different, proponents of a vegan life tend to be more polite and rational here than those who defend a lifestyle that implies the slaughter of numerous animals. This is just my impression and just here. I am sure that assholes can be vegans too and I definitely don't want to imply that all meat-eaters would be impolite, neither in general nor here!

Politeness and rationality are pleasant for me, but I'd really love if discussions on the internet would also be more constructive—if instead of defending our initial positions with whatever it takes, we would look for common ground, learn and support each other to pursue those paths that we can agree on being worthwhile. Of course everyone is convinced of his position, but if people are honest with themselves, do they really think their way is always 100% ideal and the others are 0% right? That would be quite conceited for any topic that rises over a certain level of complexity.

What do people think winning in a discussion about meat-eating, veganism etc. means? Getting the most likes? Understanding each other better? Seeing the other side stutter or silence or making a fool out of themselves? Converting people? Personally I'd love if these discussions would lead to at least a small change in people's habits which animals can profit from. And when I say "animals" I mean to include us humans, but definitely not just us humans. This would be an awesome outcome and it would mean for me that the discussion was worth it.
 
Given that none of his posts in this thread contain an argument, but start right off with ridicule and then switch to insults, I am afraid you may be right. At least he is not displaying the capacity for a civil discourse. On the one hand I am a bit sorry for having given him attention here—since the saying goes don't feed the trolls—but on the other hand my experience in life has been that bullies tend to become worse and worse when you don't speak out that they are going too far.

I'm neither vegan nor meat-eater and I'm a pet keeper. I feel like my position is somewhere in the middle of the discussed lifestyles. Looking from this position my impression has been that, although every individual is different, proponents of a vegan life tend to be more polite and rational here than those who defend a lifestyle that implies the slaughter of numerous animals. This is just my impression and just here. I am sure that assholes can be vegans too and I definitely don't want to imply that all meat-eaters would be impolite, neither in general nor here!

Politeness and rationality are pleasant for me, but I'd really love if discussions on the internet would also be more constructive—if instead of defending our initial positions with whatever it takes, we would look for common ground, learn and support each other to pursue those paths that we can agree on being worthwhile. Of course everyone is convinced of his position, but if people are honest with themselves, do they really think their way is always 100% ideal and the others are 0% right? That would be quite conceited for any topic that rises over a certain level of complexity.

What do people think winning in a discussion about meat-eating, veganism etc. means? Getting the most likes? Understanding each other better? Seeing the other side stutter or silence or making a fool out of themselves? Converting people? Personally I'd love if these discussions would lead to at least a small change in people's habits which animals can profit from. And when I say "animals" I mean to include us humans, but definitely not just us humans. This would be an awesome outcome and it would mean for me that the discussion was worth it.

personally my win conditions are 1.being forced to change my position, 2. Forcing the opponent to change his position, 3. Getting interested by what the opp says, 4. Getting the interest of my opponent and 5. Receiving praise..

As for the animals, i don't think individual position can help them.. I believe in systemic changes..

I'm mostly trying to share a vision of ecology that doesn't assume anthropocentrist bias all the while respecting the scientific consensus and giving my own hypothesis to get them checked, criticized and made better..
 
Just sneaking this in here. Long discussion but nobody mentioned something similar to my take on this. Humans *are* animals. It seems as though that tends to get downplayed or forgotten?

1) As such, we don't have fewer natural born rights than any other animal, other predators/omnivores included. Animals eat animals. I'm an animal. I will not feel ethically obliged not to eat animals.

2). Because I am a human consciously aware of the cause/effect nature of our impact on ecology, humans might be argued to have an ecological obligation to eat animals, wild or domestic.

In the case of the American Bison, for instance, it's *that* we eat them that they exist today at all. The unprecedented success of their return from the brink of extinction (by humans, yes, starting with predation by indigenous peoples) is largely due to, and continues to be hugely dependent upon, bison producers. Can't apologize for what happened in the past. But eating them is necessary to their future. Vegetarians contribute nothing to that conservation effort.

And managing the wild herds, what would we do with the cull from Yellowstone each year, to maintain the herd's health, if not eat it? Make it all into dog food? (But why should only dogs get what is, after all, the no. 1 most nutritive meat for human consumption?).

The bear eats salmon from the stream, not just shoots and berries. Even red deer have learned to tear the heads off sleeping sea birds and eat them for the calcium. Heck, National Geographic documented a whitetail deer eating a human carcass, grabbing a photo of the animal, surprised mid-meal, with a rib dangling from its mouth.

And animals kill animals not just for food. I recall footage of frenzied wolves chasing and killing caribou just for the sheer exhilaration of it, never going back to carcasses that lay behind them at the end of the chase). No one shames them for it. It's part of their nature, part of nature as a whole. The carcasses they left behind no doubt fed scavengers. Eating meat is natural. And its good stewardship. I happily embrace nature by taking my place on the planet as a carnivore -- totally appreciating those who by their own choice prefer not to. Just... don't claim there's no justification for eating meat. It's *not* eating meat that requires justification.
 
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Just sneaking this in here. Long discussion but nobody mentioned something similar to my take on this. Humans *are* animals. It seems as though that tends to get downplayed or forgotten?

1) As such, we don't have fewer natural born rights than any other animal, other predators/omnivores included. Animals eat animals. I'm an animal. I will not feel ethically obliged not to eat animals.

2). Because I am a human consciously aware of the cause/effect nature of our impact on ecology, humans might be argued to have an ecological obligation to eat animals, wild or domestic.

In the case of the American Bison, for instance, it's *that* we eat them that they exist today at all. The unprecedented success of their return from the brink of extinction is largely due to, and continues to be hugely dependent upon, bison producers. What would we do with the cull from Yellowstone each year, to maintain the health of that herd, if not eat it? Make it all into dog food? (Why should only dogs get what is, after all, the no. 1 most nutritive meat for human consumption?).

The bear eats salmon from the stream, not just shoots and berries. Even deer have learned to tear the heads off sleeping birds and eat them for the calcium. National Geographic documented a deer eating a human carcass, grabbing a photo of the animal, surprised mid-meal, with a rib dangling from its mouth.

And it's not even just for food. I recall footage of wolves chasing and killing caribou just for the sheer exhilaration of it, never going back to carcasses that lay behind them at the end of the chase). No one shames them for it. It's part of their nature, part of nature as a whole.

Eating meat is good stewardship. I happily embrace nature by taking my place in it as a carnivore.

hi, i'd like to know your answer to one particular question,

For what reason or reasons do you think that before us, wildlife was consistently able to re-diversify itself after any given extinction, however massive it was?
 
I would defer to others, as the question consists of a priori premises that first must be argued to common grounds. Once there is agreement on those (unlikely), the question can then be responded to with only vague speculation that I myself see no value in either way.
 
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I would defer to others, as the question consists of a priori premises that first must be argued to common grounds. Once there is agreement on those (unlikely), the question can then be responded to with only vague speculation that I myself see no value in either way.

mmh.. Are you doubting that life has always been able to rediversify itself? Or are you doubting that mankind can prevent rediversification and is doing just that as we speak?

Maybe you suggest that since we are in the middle of a mass extinction it is normal that there is vastly more extinction than speciation and that rediversification will happen in time after the end of the actual mass extinction event?
 
Correct, humans don't have less rights than other animals. In most cases animals eat animals because they have to. Humans don't. The harm animals cause is usually necessary for their survival. The harm we cause to them isn't necessary for ours. So, when we kill animals unnecessarily, it's an ethical issue.



If we all hunted animals for food, animal species would be largely endangered or extinct.



In the case of the American bison, it's hunting and eating them that caused them to go nearly extinct. We can't kill most of them off, and then expect them to be grateful for breeding them back into existence just so we can eat them. Vegetarians/vegans also contributed nothing towards their original near extinction.



First we should ask why we are playing God. Killing animals in order to save them seems a bit counter-intuitive. Maybe there are other ways. Maybe if we didn't originally kill off their natural predators we wouldn't also have to kill off overpopulation of the herd. If we absolutely have to kill off some of them to protect the herd as a whole, then I suppose that would be necessary killing. Maybe leave some carcasses for predators. But that's not even where most of the meat humans consume comes from--it's from factory farming; and once again, if humans did hunt wild animals, with as many humans as exist today, we'd hunt them into extinction.



I'd argue that what happens in nature isn't what humans should base a moral system upon. Humans have the ability to observe nature and create a moral system for themselves which considers the well-being of those outside of our circle.



Once again, that's an appeal to nature fallacy. They wouldn't understand it if a human shamed them, anyway. I don't see how eating meat can be considered good stewardship. I still maintain that eating meat does require justification. Some animals need to do it to survive. Humans don't, unless maybe some Inuit tribes, which I'd say have a justification if they don't have access to grocery stores. The biggest reason most humans eat meat is because they think they need to for nutrition, and like the taste.

Bowing out. No common ground. Where there is no common ground, there is no possibility of argument. But, let's have a drink together anyway and discuss any other topic of your choosing. Now, if you tell me you don't drink, I'll just have to slap you hard. LOL ... Naw, more whisky for me (no animals were involved in its production, promise) .
 
Right. Drunk is ... not a goal of mine. Fine single-malt scotches only. Sort of a "safety whisky" -- since you go broke drinking them long before you have enough to become intoxicated. :)
 
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Nothing like a good whiskey to wash down a nice juicy, steak.

You just gotta keep jabbing a stick at the dog, don'cha? (All in fun!) But YES! With bison prime rib, though, a smokey whisky prior to, while grilling, smelling the smoke, fat dripping, sizzle. And then --- damn, mouth watering now --- what do you think, a merlot? How 'bout a Cab Sauv/Merlot blend accented with one of our fine Upper Midwest grapes? Add a little accent to it from Marquette. A local winery does this exceptionally well. I've got just the one in mind.

Bison's so expensive. I'll probably have to settle for a 2 1/2" - 3" thick "tomahawk" they have here. Sous vide that for about 45-50 minutes to medium rare, then finish it to a thin, charred crust over a pile of red-hot briquettes.

For us -- AND for our vegetarian friends, wait till you see what I do with the vegetables. I have my own spice blend I toss them with, in light oil before they get bagged together in aluminum foil. Lay that directly on the coals 10 minutes per side. You will LOVE this!

Join me?
 
My diet is mostly vegan, though I make exceptions for fish and chicken. I have vegan friends and your fear OP is irrational. I actually had a good chuckle reading it.
 
You just gotta keep jabbing a stick at the dog, don'cha? (All in fun!) But YES! With bison prime rib, though, a smokey whisky prior to, while grilling, smelling the smoke, fat dripping, sizzle. And then --- damn, mouth watering now --- what do you think, a merlot? How 'bout a Cab Sauv/Merlot blend accented with one of our fine Upper Midwest grapes? Add a little accent to it from Marquette. A local winery does this exceptionally well. I've got just the one in mind.

Bison's so expensive. I'll probably have to settle for a 2 1/2" - 3" thick "tomahawk" they have here. Sous vide that for about 45-50 minutes to medium rare, then finish it to a thin, charred crust over a pile of red-hot briquettes.

Join me?
Honestly your speaking gibberish to this simple country boy haha.

I am a simple man.. Lord Calvert and a sirloin is good enough for me.

C is for cookie: that's good enough for me!
 
Honestly your speaking gibberish to this simple country boy haha.

I am a simple man.. Lord Calvert and a sirloin is good enough for me.

C is for cookie: that's good enough for me!

THAT, my friend, is the best argument I've heard in here to date. :)
 
Bowing out. No common ground. Where there is no common ground, there is no possibility of argument. But, let's have a drink together anyway and discuss any other topic of your choosing. Now, if you tell me you don't drink, I'll just have to slap you hard. LOL ... Naw, more whisky for me (no animals were involved in its production, promise) .

you're not helping us to find a common ground tho..

Hmm.. Ok.. Ill try something.. What do you think about humans who loose the benefits of their human rights or whatever rights they have because of actions they have done and for which they are punished for?
Is that familiar and common groundish enough?

Now there are plenty of ways in which a human can be stripped of those..

So what about removing wild rights to mankind based on past and present actions detrimental to the wild as well as inevitable future consequences of those actions..

Based on many aspects of our current moral and legal theory of rights, that shouldn't seem so outlandish in principle to us, right?..
 
That sort of goes off in a different vague direction.

What I meant was, definition of terms we've *already* given, but won't agree on. Facts already established by one, but rejected by the other. Primary assumptions we start the discussion with that the sides do not share.

What does it mean that animals consistently diversified after a major extinction event? Then, how do we establish "consistently" diversified? And does that even have anything remotely to do with the topic? And I'd already acknowledged bison were going extinct because of humans, that we can't go backward. Their secure existence today came about *because of" the great efforts of the bison industry, consciously creating a market that finances the vast majority of the conservation effort.... And which has established strict ethics for how producers maintain the herd. Hybridization, for instance, absolutely verboten. The industry recognizes that if you want to preserve the bison, eat them.

So many wildlife conservation efforts are based exactly on that. In the state where I grew up, zero dollars for conservation came from taxpayers. They came from hunters and fishermen. That means, unless you voluntarily contributed to wildlife conservation (few do), all conservation money came from meat hunters/eaters. And it isn't just conservation of game animals. Funds collected from hunters and fishermen paid for wildlife areas, conservation areas, restoration projects, protecting wetlands, etc., that benefit all animals, recreating and preserving a balanced ecosystem.

Vegetarians aren't the only ones concerned with environmental impact. We all are. We just go about it differently. And to date? It's been very effective.

For vegans and other "don't eat animals" groups to decide not to eat animals is fine. For them to point out that we are higher order thinking animals capable of choosing *not* to do harm to other sentient creatures is awesome. We do that. But they have no standing whatsoever to demand others do the same. "I can live a vegan lifestyle and be healthy without eating meat." Great! I don't want to. I *like* being like other carnivores. I *understand* that slaughter ends a perfectly viable creature's life. In fact, I *want* the animals I eat to have been really healthy.

As for *raising* animals to be eaten... yep, there have been horrendous, historical abuses. And there are still some today. But have you seen how close the stock farmers are to their animals? Do you have connection with any of them? It's a complex thing to take in. They're raising them for food, but they truly love their animals.

If there are abuses in animal husbandry, address the abuses (as has been going on for years). Nothing is to be gained by pointing to isolated cases and then saying the whole industry must be abolished. It's not going to happen, in the first place. Makes the position so unrealistically extreme that it provokes derision from pro-meat-eaters.

I fear that as you or others were reading this, you've already found a couple dozen points you're shaking your head at, or have a better argument.

But it's kind of like arguing there's a god, right? Those committed to a belief in god can NOT ARGUE the point, because to argue it, you have to start off ready to be proven wrong. They are not. They will NOT be proven wrong. Their whole goal in taking up an "argument" is to defend what they already believe. And vice versa. They will not value any grounds the other "side" proposes.

I've already dealt with the objections of the "don't eat meat" community on my own, personally, within myself. Not against *them*, but against *me*, as my own objections. *I* had difficulty for a long time coming to terms with it. I've been to a packing plant. I've seen live beef cattle killed and instantaneously hung from hooks, traveling up a conveyor, gutted while they were moving down the line, hided, split... the eyes still twitching, the jaw muscles still quivering as their skinless heads kept moving, the rest of them already divided up. I heard them bawling in the line, knowing that death lay ahead, no way to back out.

I've driven the "skins" truck, that took hides run through scraping rollers to get the fat and meat sticking to them off, from the plant to the hide treatment facility 120 miles away.

I also noted how efficient, clean and quick it was. And ... at the end of the run, hungry, I grabbed a burger... or if I had time, sat down to a steak.

I'm good with that. I've worked through the objections I had -- many of them being raised here again -- and I'm okay with that. Beef's a little expensive for my wallet, so I prefer my protein in the form of pork or chicken. And there's venison I took myself a month ago still in my freezer, almost gone. I lay in wait like any other predator. I had been in place two hours before I knew the deer would move. Then waited patiently in ambush, as many predators do. Then *unlike* many predators, due to human technology, I took that deer with a single shot. Doesn't always go that way. Sometimes I've had to track them for hours. And a couple times, they got away. But I still have a better "kill" record than many wolf packs. Took this last deer instantly. Stood up shaking, all the anticipation releasing, as I watched carefully to make sure the deer wasn't just wounded, but down for good. Perfect shot. Died almost instantly. In fact the other deer behind that one keep looking on, like, "What the hell? Why did you lie down?" I shot a second one that was doing that. Had to track that one about 500 yards through a cornfield, though. Gave that one to the landowner. Dressed it and hided it and quartered it for him that same evening.

I love deer. They're beautiful. But when I'm looking down my arrow or through my gunsights, I see... meat. I see backstops and tenderloins, heart and liver, bratwurst and jerky.

I'm a meat eater. You ain't gonna change me. Probably not any other meat eater here.

And I'm probably not going to change you. So... there is no argument. Both sides are entrenched.
 
That sort of goes off in a different vague direction.

What I meant was, definition of terms we've *already* given, but won't agree on. Facts already established by one, but rejected by the other. Primary assumptions we start the discussion with that the sides do not share.

What does it mean that animals consistently diversified after a major extinction event? Then, how do we establish "consistently" diversified? And does that even have anything remotely to do with the topic? And I'd already acknowledged bison were going extinct because of humans, that we can't go backward. Their secure existence today came about *because of" the great efforts of the bison industry, consciously creating a market that finances the vast majority of the conservation effort.... And which has established strict ethics for how producers maintain the herd. Hybridization, for instance, absolutely verboten. The industry recognizes that if you want to preserve the bison, eat them.

So many wildlife conservation efforts are based exactly on that. In the state where I grew up, zero dollars for conservation came from taxpayers. They came from hunters and fishermen. That means, unless you voluntarily contributed to wildlife conservation (few do), all conservation money came from meat hunters/eaters. And it isn't just conservation of game animals. Funds collected from hunters and fishermen paid for wildlife areas, conservation areas, restoration projects, protecting wetlands, etc., that benefit all animals, recreating and preserving a balanced ecosystem.

Vegetarians aren't the only ones concerned with environmental impact. We all are. We just go about it differently. And to date? It's been very effective.

For vegans and other "don't eat animals" groups to decide not to eat animals is fine. For them to point out that we are higher order thinking animals capable of choosing *not* to do harm to other sentient creatures is awesome. We do that. But they have no standing whatsoever to demand others do the same. "I can live a vegan lifestyle and be healthy without eating meat." Great! I don't want to. I *like* being like other carnivores. I *understand* that slaughter ends a perfectly viable creature's life. In fact, I *want* the animals I eat to have been really healthy.

As for *raising* animals to be eaten... yep, there have been horrendous, historical abuses. And there are still some today. But have you seen how close the stock farmers are to their animals? Do you have connection with any of them? It's a complex thing to take in. They're raising them for food, but they truly love their animals.

If there are abuses in animal husbandry, address the abuses (as has been going on for years). Nothing is to be gained by pointing to isolated cases and then saying the whole industry must be abolished. It's not going to happen, in the first place. Makes the position so unrealistically extreme that it provokes derision from pro-meat-eaters.

I fear that as you or others were reading this, you've already found a couple dozen points you're shaking your head at, or have a better argument.

But it's kind of like arguing there's a god, right? Those committed to a belief in god can NOT ARGUE the point, because to argue it, you have to start off ready to be proven wrong. They are not. They will NOT be proven wrong. Their whole goal in taking up an "argument" is to defend what they already believe. And vice versa. They will not value any grounds the other "side" proposes.

I've already dealt with the objections of the "don't eat meat" community on my own, personally, within myself. Not against *them*, but against *me*, as my own objections. *I* had difficulty for a long time coming to terms with it. I've been to a packing plant. I've seen live beef cattle killed and instantaneously hung from hooks, traveling up a conveyor, gutted while they were moving down the line, hided, split... the eyes still twitching, the jaw muscles still quivering as their skinless heads kept moving, the rest of them already divided up. I heard them bawling in the line, knowing that death lay ahead, no way to back out.

I've driven the "skins" truck, that took hides run through scraping rollers to get the fat and meat sticking to them off, from the plant to the hide treatment facility 120 miles away.

I also noted how efficient, clean and quick it was. And ... at the end of the run, hungry, I grabbed a burger... or if I had time, sat down to a steak.

I'm good with that. I've worked through the objections I had -- many of them being raised here again -- and I'm okay with that. Beef's a little expensive for my wallet, so I prefer my protein in the form of pork or chicken. And there's venison I took myself a month ago still in my freezer, almost gone. I lay in wait like any other predator. I had been in place two hours before I knew the deer would move. Then waited patiently in ambush, as many predators do. Then *unlike* many predators, due to human technology, I took that deer with a single shot. Doesn't always go that way. Sometimes I've had to track them for hours. And a couple times, they got away. But I still have a better "kill" record than many wolf packs. Took this last deer instantly. Stood up shaking, all the anticipation releasing, as I watched carefully to make sure the deer wasn't just wounded, but down for good. Perfect shot. Died almost instantly. In fact the other deer behind that one keep looking on, like, "What the hell? Why did you lie down?" I shot a second one that was doing that. Had to track that one about 500 yards through a cornfield, though. Gave that one to the landowner. Dressed it and hided it and quartered it for him that same evening.

I love deer. They're beautiful. But when I'm looking down my arrow or through my gunsights, I see... meat. I see backstops and tenderloins, heart and liver, bratwurst and jerky.

I'm a meat eater. You ain't gonna change me. Probably not any other meat eater here.

And I'm probably not going to change you. So... there is no argument. Both sides are entrenched.

let's talk about bisons..

What do you think would happen if we stopped killing them?
 
LOL ... you've really got your teeth in this! Okay. Explain. What do you mean, "If we stopped killing them"? Are you talking the Yellowstone cull? Or meat production? Bison hunts on Native American reservations or private reservations? Or en toto?

They are different kinds of "killing" and have different consequences if you stop.

- Yellowstone cull is a conservation technique used to manage the herd's welfare by staying within the carrying capacity of the park. Stopping it will have detrimental consequences on the herd's health leading to illness and starvation, as well as to other wildlife due to bison overpopulation.

- The hunts? Not much. I don't care about those. But it's revenue for the tribes and, within the tribe, carries on the historical tribal relationship with bison. Private hunting preserves? I find those personally distasteful. But same thing, it has little to do with conservation.

- Meat production? You stop the bison industry, you basically just relegated bison to a few zoos and parks (which will need to use the cull method for management anyway and would be affected by that if you prohibited culls). The bison industry has been paying for the efforts to "breed out" the genetics of bovine crosses introduced in the early 20th century. Bison are traded and moved around between producers and park systems to improve genetically healthy individuals, since bison primarily were "brought back" from such a small gene pool. They fund almost all research. Ted Turner, who owns 55,000 head or more on 17 ranches, has personally funded autogenous vaccines that he freely gave away so that the North American herd was protected from a specific kind of disease bison were contracting. The disease is related to one that cattle get, but it isn't one they can give bison. Caught it! Another success story -- but was funded by a bison producer.

The issue is so complex. Those who are "just agin killin' 'em" really have to look at a wide, wide range of consequences. The status quo is known, whether ugly or not. Taking a wild-ass, radical move of "let's don't kill them anymore" is a reckless proposal.

But what I think you really wanted, right, was a bunch of new things to counter argue? It's why I'm not going to engage anymore.
 
See. I have been very clear. And it got read right over. You just asked, "Why doesn't it happen with bison?" And I had already made it very clear that that's exactly the reason we cull them -- and eat what we cull.

They killed, what, 900 in Yellowstone this year? (I see the goal was from 600 to 900). The herd had overpopulated. And yep, those got eaten.

And you're exactly right: If we required every person to hunt to get their animal protein, we'd exhaust the supply. Hence, domesticated livestock. If you want meat (and a lot of us do), livestock is the way to go. It's the way we went. It works for me.

A "prey" animal has one purpose in the world -- feed other critters. I *am* an other critter. I'm going to feed off them. Same as a bear, a wolf, a mountain lion or any other predator.

You don't like that idea. Then *you* don't do it.

Me? I relish the idea. I embrace my role. So me and other meat eaters, leave us alone. Rabbits, squirrels, sheep, goats, deer, caribou, elk, beeves, bison -- and lots of other creatures -- exist in the grand scheme of things primarily to feed other creatures. I am an other creature. That is their role, this is mine.

I will never share your aversion to taking a life. It's the way the eco-system works. Being "food" for other creatures is a worthy purpose. They are not being abused. They are fulfilling their purpose.

Sometimes I want to go back in history and slap the shit out of Walt Disney, the guy who polluted future generations with his anthropomorphic treatment of animals like Bambi and his father and vilification of hunters. It's what deer are *for*. They exist to feed other creatures. The predators aren't "bad guys," and prey aren't "victims." These are their roles, assigned by nature. And domesticated livestock? That's the clever, talking ape's way of making use of nature's design. Saw it, understood it, tweaked it, ensured a sustainable meat supply continued.

A sustainable meat supply. I should patent that phrasing. What a concise and apt way to describe the livestock industry.

Now, eat my pet? Naw. I'm a stupid American. That's a cultural taboo for us. It runs so deep in me that I even hate to see other cultures eat their dogs. But I don't stop them from doing it. I have no standing to do that.

And those cultures? They think *we* are absolutely ridiculous to live with such animals in our homes. The Guatemalan next door was appalled upon moving to the U.S., to find that almost everyone has dogs and cats not only *in* their houses but that almost never see the great outdoors. And we treat animals as if they were little people, buying them comfy beds and feeding them expensive gourmet foods. That just amazed him.

One day they got some pretty rabbits at the pet store, the one I remember most was all black, with big floppy ears. I *thought* they were "catching on." They were adapting to our culture, blending in. They would regularly bring the rabbits outdoors to play with them, let them hop around the grass a bit. But one day I asked the little girl why didn't she bring the rabbits outside anymore? She said they didn't have rabbits anymore. When they had gotten big enough, they ate them.

I laughed out loud when I heard it. Perfect! That's perfect. Took me by surprise, I'm okay with that. Rabbits make good meals. And they got to serve their grand purpose. Allowing them to live till they died of old age is the perversity.

Same as cows. They are raised for milk and food. Eat them! My only "ethical" obligation as a human is to treat them with respect from birth till well after death, not wasting nor disregarding their contribution's value. And those ethics, we impose upon ourselves. Nothing else on the planet requires itself to respect its prey.

I'm probably one of the few hunters that kneels before the deer I've just taken and gives it a moment of respect, speaking my appreciation for the role it played on earth, even before I begin what is the initial stage of processing the meat, field dressing it. It's what deer are *for*.

Not many animals *like* to eat a human, but will. It's not what we are "for," but in a pinch, we'll do. I'm okay with that. It's fair.

Did you hear all the a priori assumptions? Do you see my starting point and how it differs from yours? See why we can't agree? And do you see why you'll NEVER succeed in trying to impose your a priori assumptions on me to the contrary? Give up! I think a primary one is that there are animals whose *purpose* is to feed other animals, I'll never convince you of that. Another that we won't agree on is that it's our *obligation* to eat animals. Our obligation! You're not going to grant me that. And from that point on, further discussion has no purpose other than to amuse. No one's mind is going to change. We start from such opposing belief systems that we'll never agree.

But I have additional considerations for your leisure reading you might not have heard before. One is about that predatory obligation. Your very existence displaced a predator. Probably more than one. You and your house, your yard. Your car. Your commute to work. The structures and infrastructures that support you. The wolves and bears that once lived where you are moved on. You displaced them. As such, you took their place. The animals that were their prey could not exist anymore where *you* are. But some could. Some do. Frickin' little rabbits are everywhere, damn them. And squirrels? Holy crap! They're where they never were before you came. Whitetail deer, more exist today than ever before in history. Their natural predators are gone, displaced by us. They had no problem adapting to our presence. Talk about your overpopulation, populations running amok. We *have* to hunt them to keep those numbers in check, same as their historic predators did. And in turn, we charge humans big fees for doing that, funding conservation programs that serve *all* wildlife and preserve natural habitats, natural environments, the ecosystem itself.

What do vegetarians do? Totally irresponsible. They do not offer up any money or any plan to replace the scientifically calculated controls that are in place. They don't even *know* how the system works, its components, that they're talking about putting an end to. "We don't need to kill animals to feed ourselves." That it? That's your whole argument?

Me? I look at is this way. I *am* a part of nature. *I* am natural. My existence is just one predator displacing another, same as coyotes impose themselves in fox territory.

So eat the squirrels and rabbits! (I *do* poach them out of my backyard, and teach my dog to hunt and fetch them on my own property here in the middle of a city). If we ate more of the rabbits and squirrels running through our yards, eating our walnuts and messing in our gardens, we'd need fewer beeves and porkers and chickens! They don't make *much* of a meal, but they're good for at least one. :)

To intentionally, deliberately take the life of another sentient creature takes nerve. I'm proud to have that nerve. To disembowel it, select choice organs and set them aside, hide it and prepare the hide for leather projects (they used to have drop boxes to put them in, and in trade you'd get deerskin gloves or a knife or something like that). To bone the meat from the skeleton. To know how to make meat dishes from it, how to prepare and cook it, how to serve it, what to serve it with -- these are skills you'll never make me ashamed of. They are skills I've passed on to my children and they will pass on to theirs.

Your children will never have those skills, and I'm okay with that. I don't chastise you for that. Now you leave us alone. You have no standing to impose your unnatural beliefs on the rest of us.
 
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BlueBeard, the animals we produce in industrial farming had not existed before man. They have wild ancestors and these were hunted by predators, yes, but they were different from domesticated pigs and cows and chicken—they grew slower, had less meat, produced less milk, they frolicked freely and they were smaller in numbers. If you believe in a creator who had a plan, then that's how the plan looked originally, the grand scheme of things. Our industrial farming industry has not been created by God, but by humans.

If you don't believe in a creator, I don't really know what you mean by saying that deer are for being hunted and eaten. Purpose is given by a creator; without a creator there is no purpose in an intentional, meaningful sense. There is still use, however. Predators use deer for hunting and feeding on them.

Domesticated animals have been at least partly created by us humans intentionally. So you could say that domesticated animals are for eating, because that's what man breeds them for. But that's almost like saying that anything goes. By that logic, if someone organized a dog to breed his bitch to get puppies in order to torture them, then that would be literally what they were made for. And yet I still think that torturing them would be wrong. I could explain why, but that's not the point and I think that we agree on it anyway. I just want to illustrate with this example the fact that humans breeding animals for a certain purpose doesn't make it ethical.

I agree with you about hunting wild bisons and using them for food. Ideally we would use their meat to feed pets like cats first who rely on meat.
 
BlueBeard, the animals we produce in industrial farming had not existed before man. They have wild ancestors and these were hunted by predators, yes, but they were different from domesticated pigs and cows and chicken—they grew slower, had less meat, produced less milk, they frolicked freely and they were smaller in numbers. If you believe in a creator who had a plan, then that's how the plan looked originally, the grand scheme of things. Our industrial farming industry has not been created by God, but by humans.

If you don't believe in a creator, I don't really know what you mean by saying that deer are for being hunted and eaten. Purpose is given by a creator; without a creator there is no purpose in an intentional, meaningful sense. There is still use, however. Predators use deer for hunting and feeding on them.

Domesticated animals have been at least partly created by us humans intentionally. So you could say that domesticated animals are for eating, because that's what man breeds them for. But that's almost like saying that anything goes. By that logic, if someone organized a dog to breed his bitch to get puppies in order to torture them, then that would be literally what they were made for. And yet I still think that torturing them would be wrong. I could explain why, but that's not the point and I think that we agree on it anyway. I just want to illustrate with this example the fact that humans breeding animals for a certain purpose doesn't make it ethical.

I agree with you about hunting wild bisons and using them for food. Ideally we would use their meat to feed pets like cats first who rely on meat.

We do not disagree on the facts. We might just be interpreting them differently. Yes, the primary purpose of rabbits is to be food for other animals. God or no god. If purpose is a problem word, exchange it for function. It's a reasonable conclusion inferred from observable fact.

We are clever monkeys. We observed how nature works, studied nature, and followed nature's lead, ensuring for ourselves a sustainable meat supply by slightly tweaking existing prey animals, first by domesticating them, then by breeding programs. Damn genius, really. A total salute to god. Yay humans!

From a religious perspective, although livestock animals weren't directly created *by* god, they were created by man using man's god-given gifts, our genius brains, and following *our* nature. So in short, our livestock animals were still created by god. We ARE part of god's plan. What we do is part of his/her/its plan. Same as we did to create and maintain grain supplies of corn and wheat and farm previously nonexistent plants. Same as we did to make "eating" apples, which left to their own devices return to crab apples in relatively short time, just a couple generations. Swine, poultry and beef, no different.

It's curious that people keep speaking as if humans are anathema to god and nature. We are not an opposing force. We are part of the divine plan. Heck, most religions treat us as the pinnacle of the divine plan, the reason there *is* a divine plan.

At the very least, we *are* creatures, too, designed by god, and part of nature. We have a right to be here. And we have a right to take our place as the apex predator, clever enough to use the tools of nature laid before us to our purpose, same as any other creature does.

If *you* believe in a god, and nature is his careful design, then he wouldn't let us muck it up, right? We're not more powerful than god or nature.

We meat eaters are doing just fine by god. Don't know if you're Jew or Christian, but if so, the Old Testament is full of agriculture. Bad place to turn to for arguments against killing animals. Almost have to be atheist to do that. The Jews split animals open pretty regularly on altars to offer them up as sacrifices, right? So not only keeping livestock but killing them seems to have been endorsed by a Judeo-Christian god. (Probably also by the deities of other belief systems. Jainism, not so much. And depending on what region of India you're in, this or that animal is off the slaughter list: here a rat, there a cockroach, most widely cows).

For the most part, naw, you won't find an argument against farmers from god. He sort of likes them, according to various literature. So vegans will to rely on ungodly, unnatural arguments for veganism. (Sorry. Being funny). :)

Since the site's poll indicates the vast majority using this site (who responded to the poll) are atheist, lets remove "god" from the discussion now. Doesn't make a difference. What most godly people attribute to a god is what they observe in nature. Look at nature. There are prey animals and predators. Which are we? Generally, predators.

There are just some people who will never agree with me on that. That's okay. I don't harass them for that. But I want them to consider that their imposition of their personally held values on meat eaters has no standing. They are not just annoying, but they have no persuasive power with us and never will.

See? The sides are entrenched. No point in continuing. I don't care what *vegans* eat. I'm not out to convince them to start eating meat. But when they start imposing their beliefs on others, turn it in to a political movement, well, then... we meat eaters have no recourse but to push back.
 
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In the case of the American bison, it's hunting and eating them that caused them to go nearly extinct.


Actually it was due to the war between settlers and Native Americans. Many of the Bison were killed simply so the tribes wouldn’t have a food source or make use of their hides.
 
Naw. Decline in numbers is estimated to have already begun prior to arrival of Europeans, though still numbering in the 10s of millions when Europeans arrived. Europeans dramatically increased the rate of extinction, killing bison for a variety of reasons. Meat, sport, fur -- and then, yes, as a strategy of war, cutting off a multi-purpose resource of Plains Indians (food, clothing, shelter, tools, religious icon... and cultural identity). But that was only one factor and not the main one.

Beside the point. Bison were hopeless. Pretty much foregone conclusion they would be extinct. Just a dozen bison left when the effort began, we're up to the half million in North American today. And that's largely driven by bison producers. Conservationists, national park programs, and bison producers working closely together have a goal of doubling that number underway currently. (Where I live, I'm surrounded by bison, which is why it's such a handy example for me. I am not part of the industry myself, though. I do not have any bison, though I know a few local producers really well).

Seems ironic at first, right? But that's the point. They are working to double the number of existing bison *by* eating them (grossly overstated, but fundamentally correct). The cull the wild herds. Bison producers maintain commercial herds as a marketable commodity. It's working. The genetics are improving (returning to genetic profile of bison existing before European interspecies hybridization). The animals are robust and healthy. Their effects on the environment have returned eco-systems to their pre-European condition.

Eating bison is at the bottom of it -- but of course, it's not "just" eating. That we have to eat them comes from buttloads of scientific research and ongoing studies. Culling is a conservation tool. The market itself is a conservation tool. It's not a sloppy, haphazard scheme. And it's far too involved for a thread discussion. You'll have to check out any of the copious resources that exist online. Bison represent the most successful conservation story of the past century, which continues to be studied by conservationists around the world for use in saving other endangered species.
 
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Naw. Decline in numbers is estimated to have already begun prior to arrival of Europeans, though still numbering in the 10s of millions when Europeans arrived. Europeans dramatically increased the rate of extinction, killing bison for a variety of reasons. Meat, sport, fur -- and then, yes, as a strategy of war, cutting off a multi-purpose resource of Plains Indians (food, clothing, shelter, tools, religious icon... and cultural identity). But that was only one factor and not the main one.

Beside the point. Bison were hopeless. Pretty much foregone conclusion they would be extinct. Just a dozen bison left when the effort began, we're up to the half million in North American today. And that's largely driven by bison producers. Conservationists, national park programs, and bison producers working closely together have a goal of doubling that number underway currently. (Where I live, I'm surrounded by bison, which is why it's such a handy example for me. I am not part of the industry myself, though. I do not have any bison, though I know a few local producers really well).

Seems ironic at first, right? But that's the point. They are working to double the number of existing bison *by* eating them (grossly overstated, but fundamentally correct). The cull the wild herds. Bison producers maintain commercial herds as a marketable commodity. It's working. The genetics are improving (returning to genetic profile of bison existing before European interspecies hybridization). The animals are robust and healthy. Their effects on the environment have returned eco-systems to their pre-European condition.

Eating bison is at the bottom of it -- but of course, it's not "just" eating. That we have to eat them comes from buttloads of scientific research and ongoing studies. Culling is a conservation tool. The market itself is a conservation tool. It's not a sloppy, haphazard scheme. And it's far too involved for a thread discussion. You'll have to check out any of the copious resources that exist online. Bison represent the most successful conservation story of the past century, which continues to be studied by conservationists around the world for use in saving other endangered species.


Ah ok, thank you for clearing that up for me.
 
This thread is still here? Really?

See, and I don't even believe in a god. And that's just it, humans have the ability to follow their own nature and live in a world that doesn't exploit animals for their own gain.
I am also an atheist, and I eat meat because it tastes good when I put it into my beast-muzzle.



I don't believe in a god or a divine plan. I'm not even sure how you would demonstrate them vs. the way things have naturally played out. Just because someone has the power to cause harm, doesn't meant they should. I'd say that of course we are more powerful than a fictional character (God). And man's activities definitely do mess up nature.
The only way that I will stop eating dead animals is if you produce something that is not even slightly distinquishable from a dead animal and sell it to me cheaper than a dead animal.



Can you prove that there is a god? If so, a Nobel Prize is headed your way. The Old Testament is a horrible book full of highly immoral acts and laws. It says that bestiality should be punished by death. God commands war on surrounding tribes and takes little girls as human sacrifices. It oppresses women, calls for the death of homosexuals and children who talk back against their parents, etc. So I don't give a darn what that book says.
Book of Numbers, Chapter 31. This is the most clear-cut example of atrociousness for its own sake that I was able to find in it.



Yes, let's. Okay, let's look at nature. It's full of death, disease, and horrible things like lions eating the cubs of other prides. I definitely don't want to pattern my moral system after nature. Can you imagine if humans completely patterned our civilization on observations from nature? We'd have no civilization.
We have already done that. Book of Numbers, Chapter 31, verses 17-18. Let's take a look at that part of the world and see how they are doing, shall we? Golly! Wow! They are still killing each other! That is amazing!
 
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