Is it ok to have sex with a female dog during her first heat, or should you wait for the second?

[amorousdog5]

Personally I'm against this for both ethical and practical reasons. What do people think about this?

 

[Wolfpup]

Personally I'm against this for both ethical and practical reasons. What do people think about this?

Wash your hands and cut your nails. Then give her stretching exercises till her next heat. she should be ready then.

 

[MashaSobaka]

Not good. Second heat, or more precisely, the result of a combination of second heat and age. If she have a second heat at 11 months, she is still too early.
1.5 years and second heat, ~roughly/minimum.

A large dog comes into heat for the first time at around threequarters of the year. She is very young, both physically and mentally. This can cause damage to her mentally development and may even result in the fact that she will no longer like sex.

 

[ZephyrZoo]

I'm assuming this is a byproduct of your interaction with Saltydog?

I think most owner's attitudes are pretty unanimous when it comes to waiting until the 2nd heat at least before trying anything, for the girl's own physical and mental health.

While I'm not condoning what he's doing, he made it pretty clear he has her health in mind and decades of experience and it looks like his girl is happy so I'd just leave him be. You're only going to frustrate yourself more and reiterate what's already commonly accepted as a pretty strict rule in dog love.

 

[Hollow]

First heat ?nope. That's just my opinion but I'm not going to push it down other people's throats.

If someone is Into that,they should be prepared for the risks and the potential of hurting their animal companion. In the end what they do with their companion is entirely up to them and none of my business,I simply don't recommend it.

I on the other hand i like to allow my dogs to live as natural as possible,they go through their first heat without any disturbance from me or anyone. Their second heat I allow them to be bred *depending on the breed*, experience motherhood and learn a few things from their experience of having sex with their own kind.

So I typically like to start showing sexual interests in them on their third heat *4th heat to some*, by this time they would realize what's going on. I personally think it's far better to have sexual intercourse with them when they are older and because the is a high chance that they might go crazy and love the experience

 

[Hollow]

I'm assuming this is a byproduct of your interaction with Saltydog?

I think most owner's attitudes are pretty unanimous when it comes to waiting until the 2nd heat at least before trying anything, for the girl's own physical and mental health.

While I'm not condoning what he's doing, he made it pretty clear he has her health in mind and decades of experience and it looks like his girl is happy so I'd just leave him be. You're only going to frustrate yourself more and reiterate what's already commonly accepted as a pretty strict rule in dog love.

True,each to their own as long as they have their animal companion's wellbeing at heart

 

[MashaSobaka]

I'm assuming this is a byproduct of your interaction with Saltydog?

Salty Loves His Golden... ?

 

[ZephyrZoo]

Salty Loves His Golden... ?

And Masha loves his Ovcharka or whatever that is??

 

[amorousdog5]

I'm assuming this is a byproduct of your interaction with Saltydog?

I think most owner's attitudes are pretty unanimous when it comes to waiting until the 2nd heat at least before trying anything, for the girl's own physical and mental health.

While I'm not condoning what he's doing, he made it pretty clear he has her health in mind and decades of experience and it looks like his girl is happy so I'd just leave him be. You're only going to frustrate yourself more and reiterate what's already commonly accepted as a pretty strict rule in dog love.

Quite frankly I think Salty suffers from a great deal of self-delusion, and his belief that he can fuck a less-than-a-year-old puppy during her first heat without exposing her to any risk is a prime example of that. Ideally I would want him to understand that what he has done is wrong, but I'll settle for making people aware that he may not be the best role model in terms of caring for your partner.

 

[YanchaOkami]

.. but I'll settle for making people aware that he may not be the best role model in terms of caring for your partner.

I don't get it why someone would have to actively copulate with a dog below the age of at least 12-14, better 16 months.
Do they think it's "better" if their dog is "tight"?

Anyone who has extensive experience with female dogs would know that they are built very flexible and the tissue is actively adjusting in regards of the mated size of a dick.

Even small dogs (of adult age!) could get fingered by one, 5-10 days later two and maybe even 2,5 fingers and it wouldn't hurt them at all, if done right (over longer time, patient, respecting the interest of the dogs and their body signals). As such I don't see a torture in stimulating them (only if interested, for sure) by fingers or small toys, some really love small inflatable toys which vibrate.

And if the owner doesn't possess an overly thick or lengthy dick (in relation to the dogs size), they adjust to that very well, staying "fittingly perfect" for their whole life.

The "heat" self-explanatory resembles a process which makes adjustment to (usually dogs, including knots!) dick size difference easier and more comfortable, as male dogs don't offer much patience by playing with their female mates. That's one reason why the heat loosens whole areas of the female dog quite well: to allow size difference based mating to be successful and without damages to any of the participants. That's all.

After being "adjusted" it takes around 2 to 3,5 weeks without further copulation and they are back to their "celibate" size, they don't shrink infinitely, even after spaying.

As such: I am not against giving a female interested dog which is in her heat some stimulation (not copulation!), if the dog is:

a) interested
b) actively reacting positive to such offers, as example by touching her intimate areas and
c) after knowing that the owner (in most cases) will answer her interests positively and very enjoyable, shows her interest out of free will.

That's the must-have list. Some mid sized dogs get into their first heat at around six months of age. And this does not resemble a full grown-up body, even the mucous membrane layers are not wholly finished up to a result which allows effective fighting of as example bacterial infections which might occur.

They start to have full control about their bladders at around 10 to 14 months of age, as many puppy raising owners would know. Before this age accidents happen more often, be it in the sleep, after waking up or even by hastily ingesting high amounts of water..

On the other hand: those dogs in heat are really horny, caused by hormonal balances. And it can grow to a level which confuses and stresses them visibly - as such I don't think bad of any owner which offers their female dog in heat some ways of relief.

Either by offering manual finger stimulation, by offering toys (they can show their interests themself very well) or by just rubbing and massaging the areas outside - which with some knowledge and experience can get female dogs off to orgasm quite easily.

But, and this is the "but" which counts in my eyes: I don't think of a 5 to 10 month old (mostly the age of first heat) dog as an adult dog, as their body composition is not nearly done, not grown-up fully, still possesses flexible bone structure, different problematic reactive concepts of fighting intrusive cells (bacteria, virii, one-cell and multi-cell illness generating organisms and as well fungal infections) compared to the adult variant of them self.

As such: to stimulate a horny dog in heat.. accepted, if the dog actually enjoys it and wishes for it because it can reduce her stress levels quite phenomenally.

But to copulate with a dog below the age of at least 12 months, better around 14-16 months?

It will be risky and it will not offer advantages. It doesn't have to end bad, surely enough. Many strays could tell a story of this, as they unfortunately get bred by male strays in their first heat quite often and unfortunately quite a few of them die due to absolute stress, miscarriages, inability to give a healthy birth without helping hands, inability to provide their puppies with enough energy or even dying themself in the process of birth.

And even if the female dog doesn't have to raise puppies by copulating with a human: it's still an age which gives the human no advantages, No benefits. Aside some weird .. fetishistic ideas? Some would say: underage fantasies?

I don't know. For me it's a respected living being and even if their body is able to reproduce successfully, it doesn't mean that they are grown-up. Same goes for humans, as example.

It somewhat resembles a very early training to be an obedient and depending sexual partner in my eyes, basically training a living being that sex is the "answer to weird hormonal situations"?

Because the inexperienced and stressed state of the dog searches for the most comfortable coming-out: that she experiences lower stress and the human she copulates with (which is her trusted companion in most cases! Someone she trusts in terms of her own well-being and directioning if she feels unsure) feels good and approves of her.

But as she is unsure about the changes in / on her body, she will have at least a very hard time to get a clear conclusion of what happens.. and probably decide for the wrong conclusion. Which is somehow that of a "if I feel unwell / stressed out, I should fuck my human". I wouldn't want a dog to think of this as an universal solution for all problems in life, it's robbing her of independence.

As such: there's no need to actively copulate with a female dog in her first heat - if she's already 14+ months on her first heat, then one can see it as "body-sided acceptable and without higher risks", but the "why?" still pops up as an open question in my mind.

If she wants to get stimulated, hug, touch, massage her, cuddle for hours, stimulate her externally or even internally with your fingers, maybe buy her some very small toys, let her decide whatever she wants - but I wouldn't see any advantages or positive outcomes from actively copulating with a first-heat sub-14 month female dog. Absolutely not.

As I wouldn't want to train a female young dog to actually see sex with her human companion as an universal solution for everything she experiences. That's just sad.

 

[MashaSobaka]

Quite frankly I think Salty suffers from a great deal of self-delusion, and his belief that he can fuck a less-than-a-year-old puppy during her first heat without exposing her to any risk is a prime example of that. Ideally I would want him to understand that what he has done is wrong, but I'll settle for making people aware that he may not be the best role model in terms of caring for your partner.

I saw a old post where he dog was only 2 months old, I don't think she's even a year old yet now. I found it strange, but if I read it correctly, he had several dogs before, including golden. Maybe she on the avatar? I don't know if he had sex with the current dog.
I don't think it's a good idea, even if the size is physically right and the dog allows it. She is still mentally fragile and this could be a problem later on. He risks getting banned, even though he seems like a decent guy based on his posts.


I hope this helps.
Salty Loves His Golden... ?

 

[amorousdog5]

I saw a old post where he dog was only 2 months old, I don't think she's even a year old yet now. I found it strange, but if I read it correctly, he had several dogs before, including golden. Maybe she on the avatar? I don't know if he had sex with the current dog.

He did have sex with his not yet one year old dog, he was happily gushing about it in his thread... which strangely enough I can no longer find. @FloofyNewfie Do you know if Salty's thread about his new golden got deleted?

 

[OffgridK9lover]

First heat is much like a basic test run of systems, not a true mature ready to be railed heat IMO, never do any thing first heat, you risk lots of harm in many ways.

Much better to let body and its systems finish maturing and stabilizing. Best things in life are well worth waiting for.

 

[MashaSobaka]

He did have sex with his not yet one year old dog, he was happily gushing about it in his thread... which strangely enough I can no longer find. @FloofyNewfie Do you know if Salty's thread about his new golden got deleted?

Only moderator can delete a thread, so they saw the comments.
I think he got a maximum score last warning. Although a permaban is also possible, for having sex with a dog younger than 1 year old.
I would be sorry if he were banned, but he made sex with a young dog, which is a big problem. We can't interfere in the work of the moderators.


I hope this helps.
Salty Loves His Golden... ?

 

[FloofyNewfie]

He did have sex with his not yet one year old dog, he was happily gushing about it in his thread... which strangely enough I can no longer find. @FloofyNewfie Do you know if Salty's thread about his new golden got deleted?

The most recent one he created, yes, I deleted for a number of reasons. 1) I could see where the thread was headed... and it was soon becoming a dumpster fire. 2) One of the other mods wasn't sure if his Golden Retriever was even 11 months old as his post would have suggested. He stated that her face appeared to be a bit younger than that; in the photo where he was supposedly having "sex" with her. 3) When it comes to whether or not a dog in her first heat should be given sexual stimulation of any kind is a HIGHLY controversial subject, let alone copulation.

Of course my answer to your question is "No" as I've stated before. Like you, I see it as akin to having sex with basically the doggy equivalent of a 13 year old child. However, I am also aware there there are plenty of zoos out there that have slept with their doggy partners on their first heat and the dog in question had not suffered any ill effects from doing so. I am also aware that a dog is not a human child either so a direct comparison is not a very reliable one. But, there are female dogs that have suffered ill effects from the hands of an impatient owner, as the body is not fully developed and the vaginal tissues are more prone to tearing, which is not only painful but also can lead to some nasty infections. So, even if we were to disregard how freaking creepy it is, it is also putting the dog at unnecessary risk as well.

Floofy Loves His Newfie And His Mutt... ??

 

[amorousdog5]

Thanks Floofy. I can't say that I am sorry to see his thread taken down, as I had great concern that it may have encouraged other people to do the same as Salty decided to.

 

[amorousdog5]

Giving a dog sexual stimulation by masturbating her during the first heat is not a concept I had considered before. As I consider it now, I honestly don't see it as a good idea. If a dog must be "prepared" for sex, then begin preparing her after she has fully matured.

 

[Hollow]

Giving a dog sexual stimulation by masturbating her during the first heat is not a concept I had considered before. As I consider it now, I honestly don't see it as a good idea. If a dog must be "prepared" for sex, then begin preparing her after she has fully matured.

I also don't see it as a good idea, leaving the dog alone to process what's happening to her body without anything poking at her is what I recommend

 

[MashaSobaka]

Giving a dog sexual stimulation by masturbating her during the first heat is not a concept I had considered before. As I consider it now, I honestly don't see it as a good idea. If a dog must be "prepared" for sex, then begin preparing her after she has fully matured.

Stroking of the abdomen, groin and inner thighs when lying on the back, possibly around the external genitalia. Breeders also do this with puppies, they imitate the feeling of licking the mother dog's cleaning tongue (poop/piss), which calms the puppy down.
It is useful because it is easier to remove ticks and foxtail from the dog's skin if it gets used to being touched by the owner, also this is what the vet used to advise.

I dont recommend sexual stimulation, neither with tongue nor little finger in the vagina or clitoris, in vestibule etc, not at all.
They can injure the still weak mucous membrane, saliva is full of bacteria. And the dog has a hard time understanding what want to do with her, because she is still young.

 

[amorousdog5]

Stroking of the abdomen, groin and inner thighs when lying on the back, possibly around the external genitalia. Breeders also do this with puppies, they imitate the feeling of licking the mother dog's cleaning tongue (poop/piss), which calms the puppy down.
It is useful because it is easier to remove ticks and foxtail from the dog's skin if it gets used to being touched by the owner, also this is what the vet used to advise.

It sounds like you are talking about non-sexual touching for the purpose of ensuring the health of the dog, similar to what a vet might do. I don't see a problem with that.

 

[amorousdog5]

Salty, it is good of you to apologize, but I am saddened that you even now do not admit to having done anything wrong in mating your dog early. The vast majority of people here, many experienced dog owners themselves, believe that at the very least even experienced dog owners will place their dogs at some risk by mating them during the first heat. In the face of so many of your peers telling you otherwise, do you still believe you placed her at no risk at all?

 

[amorousdog5]

In my very experienced and capable hands? No. I do not believe there were any credible risks.

I would compare this to a skilled surgeon's hands.

This is about what I expected him to say. To everyone else I will offer this as evidence that Salty maintains self-delusions that can make him very wrong about very important things despite his long experience. As such please consider very carefully before taking any of his claims at face value.

 

[YanchaOkami]

In regards of stimulating / masturbating a female dog at first heat:

Female dogs will get flooded by enormous amounts of hormones in this time. And from my work in other EU-countries (and abroad) with strays, packs and rivaling area defending behavior I know that the so-called "test run" is actually - for other strays, as example - a fully working fertile and reproductive individual of the species and gets handled as this - often with fatal results, either for the offspring or for the mother (or both, in worst case).

As such I would in no case suggest copulation - even as this doesn't additionally stress the female dog with getting impregnated - below the age stated upwards (at least 14 months, better 16+).

But back from nature's view: If a male dog wants to hump a knee below the age of 12 months, I wouldn't forbid him this, it's his good right to show the personal interests. It's recommended to show him as example, where it is OK / acceptable and where he should keep such interests to himself, to ease the life of owner & dog in all-day activities. ?‍

The same goes for female dogs. It's not that visible in the forum, as only very few "pornographic media" files show this interest of female dogs.

They can actively hump (comparable to male dogs) and seek for stimulation. And I wouldn't forbid one to do this - it's a reflection of hormonal processes and the first phase of the body to keep the reproductive aspect of life running. And the inability to get her "rocks off" can stress a female dog immensely. Up to a point where they actually cry for a male dog to copulate with them. That's nature for you.

If someone is well experienced with female dogs and their sexual desires, needs and reactions, it's easy to understand, that a comparable offer to "a lower leg for the male dog" will be sufficient to allow her self-gratification of the hormonal needs embodied by changes over growth. There's not even the slightest of penetration necessary, it's all possible from the outside just as well. And - done well - it takes around 15 to 30 seconds for the female dog to get more relaxed in this stressing time of hormonal changes.

I don't see anything wrong in relieving a female dog in heat from the stress by offering her a comparable "device" like a lower leg for the male dog. Or even a hump-able plushie. ?‍ Just that those wouldn't work very well for a female dog, d'Oh. As such: a hand offers the most precise and versatile "tool" for them to use.

This is wholly different from "penetrating a female dog actively" or "copulating with her".

The reason why I wrote half an essay about why copulation with a dog below at least 14 - 16 months of age is copulating with a not fully grown-up (but still, nature's ways - fertile) dog reflects exactly this.

But: it's in regards to forums rules a grey area from what I see, as "adult" is a synonym to "reproductively fertile" in most minds. And not "at least second heat or 14-16 months of age, whatever comes first".

(And in this case: what about those dogs which got second heat with 12 months? Dang it, really seems like a complex rule setting.)

 

[FloofyNewfie]

So, by your own post, it is plain to see that you do agree that "...10 months..." is OK.

I guess I'll also reply to you on this thread as well...

1) That was from 2020, not just 2020 but January of 2020, the first month I created my account here. 2) with more information I have changed my opinion on the matter as compared to nearly 4 years ago. 3) You're missing the context of "10 months" as the user stated his dog was 4 months old. I basically stated that he had 10 more months to go. 10 months + 4 months is 14 months old as a minimum age before copulation should be attempted. Again, waiting for the second head is the best way to go. Some even argue the 3rd heat, as stated in my post.

 

[YanchaOkami]

But I believe you can see now that your rules here at ZV are extremely vague indeed, when it comes to exactly what the minimum age requirement is for M/F copulation with a dog.

Yes, it is. But this thread doesn't actually judge about your actions, from what I've read?
The discussion was based on the individual thoughts of users in this regards.

It's an open poll reflecting the opinions of users.

If there's an interest in clarifying the rules specifically in regards of "numbers", it's easy to open up a poll with numbered amounts of months, each user can vote once and leave a feedback in regards to a clear numbered minimum age.

If it ends in the rules, who knows?! At least it could reflect the minimum age users have in their mind regarding dog-human sexual interactions.
That would be the precise variant of this one, I assume.

Edit: Why M/F copulation? Nah, dog / human copulation. Why differ between sexes?

 

[amorousdog5]

No. Amorousdog5 started this thread because he was on a mission to take me down. And as a result, my entire thread was taken down.

Salty, your thread being taken down had nothing to do with this thread so far as I know. I asked Floofy about your thread after I noticed it was missing, Floofy having already independently taken down your thread, and he responded with the details.

 

[FloofyNewfie]

And, of course, you have left out the "fingering and masturbation on the 1st heat" from your reply. This, in it's self is sexual activity. Period.

Again... 1) That was from 2020, not just 2020 but January of 2020, the first month I created my account here. 2) with more information I have changed my opinion on the matter as compared to nearly 4 years ago.

I not saying that it isn't sexual activity. It is sexual activity. What I'm saying is that with more education I have since changed my opinion/stance from "tread carefully while fingering on the first heat" to "this is not something I would recommend anyone doing at all." As, while some zoos have gotten away with it, it's behavior that's not beneficial and can potentially be harmful to said dog for a number of reasons. This includes mental maturity as well as potential health ramifications. I'm only human, which means that I'm not 100% correct about everything. But when new information presents itself and my old information cannot hold up to scrutiny, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to it.

I have no problem abiding by any rules that ZV spells out.

As stated, most breeders will NOT breed a dog on her first heat. While she's able to be impregnated, the risks to her are astronomically high. She is not of breeding age, as specified by the rules.

And please consider restoring my thread.

I see no reason to do so as mentioned in my other post. 1) It's a HIGHLY controversial subject. 2) One of the other mods wasn't even sure if she was 11 months old. (Something that is taken merely at face value) 3) This type of activity should be discouraged, as I've seen this type of thing blow up in people's faces. 4) The thread was soon becoming a dumpster fire. If it wasn't @amorousdog5 that said something, someone else surely would. And I'm not going to sit there and delete every single objection just to protect you engaging in highly risky behavior. As, many zoos agree, this is risky behavior you're engaging in. I don't care how much experience you think you have. You're putting your golden in unnecessary danger by having sex with her before she's even a year old. Before she's fully matured. Before her immune system has fully developed. Before her vaginal walls have fully developed.

 

[YanchaOkami]

But these "opinions" are being used against me as if they were "rules".

There actually are rules in regards of the age, but they are not stated in numbers, that's the point which seems to anger you, because you didn't break such a rule (stating a clear age number) due to the nonexistence of such.

The problem is: if they're not related to a specific age (number), each moderator and admin can decide for themself in regards of the minimum age below which actions are taken. Be it on look, be it on body growth, bone hardening, immune system development, usual "adult" age range for this specific breed (they can differ a bit, as you know), ratio of ears to nose, even less specific idea like "milk tooth replacement done plus 10 months" or whatever.

And you're not on a fully safe plateau with anything below probably 14 - 16 months of age..

Even the controversial discussion "problem" is quite relevant, as each user has their own idea in regards of what age should be a minimum.. (and it's not clearly stated in numbers). Probably getting even a fully acceptable thread - let's say with a 18 month old female dog in heat, which just looks quite young, be it through genes or through other circumstances - taken down, because those individuals report it for their individual impression. ?‍

As such it's not unproblematic for anyone. Could even result in someone "knowing" that the dog is 16-18 months of age, liking the video and getting a warning because it is from mod / admin side handled as "underage dog" due to not knowing his/her age.

Did you get warning points for the removal? If not: why - as long as no clear age limitation is stated in numbers - don't you just wait for the next heat cycle until you upload new videos about your lovely girl?

Whatever you think is adequate - in your own house - nobody would be able to change your mind. And as you state that you have the absolutely best for your dog in mind (which I really hope) and know, what she wants, requests, shows - whatever.. then what's the reason for being angered (or sad?) about the takedown of the thread?

Just because it's semi-arbitrary?

Then the only "solution" would be an age limitation by numbers in the rules..

As long as it is an individual decision without a clear age number, the mods & admins actually have to use their personal impression for judging. How else would they prevent puppies in the porn section? Only way for them as it is right now: to analyze what's visible or stated and decide based on this. ?‍

Surely this leads to semi-arbitrary outcomes, but - aside clear age numbers - which alternatives would you suggest?

 

[amorousdog5]

If it wasn't @amorousdog5 that said something, someone else surely would.

I'd like some clarification on this point. I never reported Salty, and never mentioned his thread within this one until after it had already been taken down. @FloofyNewfie Are you referring to my harsh denunciation of Salty within his own thread while it still existed? If so, may I ask if your attention was called to that thread by Salty reporting me?

 

[FloofyNewfie]

I'd like some clarification on this point. I never reported Salty, and never mentioned his thread within this one until after it had already been taken down. @FloofyNewfie Are you referring to my harsh denunciation of Salty within his own thread while it still existed? If so, may I ask if your attention was called to that thread by Salty reporting me?

Nope, someone else also took offense as well and reported it. You weren't the only one that was upset that he didn't wait for the second heat. My comment above was addressing SaltyDog calling for me to restore the thread, delete your posts in his thread, and tell you not to post on it.