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In the US, we'll have to fight it in the courts

Consider this before getting involved in something LEGALLY..to do this, you need to be a legally IDENTIFIABLE individual. Are you will to be publicly outed as a zoo ? Your full name and probably address listed on legal papers ?. Also..the original poster may not actually have OUR best interests at heart, but this could be some sort of entrapment sting ? Call me paranoid..but, I've not gotten to my age by being careless :)
 
Oh, it's the cult of cowardice again. It's your generation's toxic complacency that got us into this mess, so your moral credibility is on the wane. Moving forward, we are going to have to learn how to be more vigorous.

I've already got a local group going. It's going to take a few years for us to really get coordinated, though. These things don't happen overnight.
 
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Oh, it's the cult of cowardice again. It's your generation's toxic complacency that got us into this mess, so your moral credibility is on the wane. Moving forward, we are going to have to learn how to be more vigorous.

I've already got a local group going. It's going to take a few years for us to really get coordinated, though. These things don't happen overnight.
Good for you. Have you made provisions for your animals (assuming you have any) when the mob comes to get you and kill them for the crime of being "tainted" by sex with a human?

You never have bothered to answer that anywhere that I've seen - You got any skin in the game (AKA animals that look to you for their protection and upkeep), or are you just running your mouth like so many before you have done because you think it's a neat cause?
 
Who cares what the law says. It's not changing in our favor ever. Anyone who would be discovered as a zoo would face ridicule and humiliation regardless of the law. Just don't be a fool and get caught.
 
@UR20Z

We haven't even met in person, yet. We're not taking anything that fast.

I think that you and some others have probably misconstrued my tones of urgency.

The earliest gay rights organizations were only able to produce a gradual generational change, and it took more than 50 years, from the founding of the first gay rights organizations, to induce the repeal of all remaining sodomy laws in the United States.

If we start organizing now, then we are probably half a century out from actually entirely getting our way, at the national level.

It's not ever going to happen if we don't start taking some initial steps based on a solid grounding in history.

My tones of urgency are based on the fact that we have to start now for anything to change at all while I am still alive.
 
Call it a fantasy land all you want. But going public is a surefire way to get on lists you don't want to be on. Not just government lists, but the white knights and crusaders out there who will harass and assault zoos. Between that and taking my chances by staying anon, I'll stay anon.
For those of us who work for the government, we would rather stay hidden. For top secret security clearances, sometimes the investigator will ask if you participate in bestiality.. ofc we say no, but they say that if you admit yes to that, it’s a red flag and they can’t give you the clearance. Apparently bestiality is considered a risky lifestyle choice, and you can’t be trusted with top secret information/jobs if you are doing risky things. Ironic because of how anonymous we tend to be.
 
Dating another zoo... Now there's a high-priority concept for me. NOT. I'm light-years away from being one of those "I hate/fear all women, so I fuck animals instead" assholes, but I am animal-exclusive - sex with a human partner, of either sex, holds about as much interest for me as the idea of having a root-canal without anesthesia. The idea of dating another zoo is comical to me - If you want to date another human, why are you having sex with animals?!? What's the point??? As far as zoo organizations, well, I think it was Groucho Marx who said it best when he stated "I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me". Come out of the closet... Why, unless you're looking for some sort of "I'm a special snowflake" badge? And how, pray-tell, does a zoo "express himself", aside from being with his animal partner? (And if anybody wants to get huffy about my using the male pronoun as a generic, the complaint window is open on the second tuesday of each week - complaints made at any other time will be ignored)

The only concept you bring up that has any relevance, at least so far as I can see, is the "don't need to lie to the vet" one. And even that is a weak point, since unless you bring in a bitch that's dribbling your jizz, what, exactly, is there to need to lie about? (And why the hell are you putting the dick to her close enough to a vet visit that dribbling is a possibility to begin with??? That's just plain stupid, and almost deserves getting busted!)
A lot of people here just like to watch another person having sex with an animal. A lot of users probably come for the porn here. People who want to date a zoo probably want a partner that is okay and willing to have sex with an animal for their voyeuristic pleasure.
 
@UR20Z

We haven't even met in person, yet. We're not taking anything that fast.

I think that you and some others have probably misconstrued my tones of urgency.

The earliest gay rights organizations were only able to produce a gradual generational change, and it took more than 50 years, from the founding of the first gay rights organizations, to induce the repeal of all remaining sodomy laws in the United States.

If we start organizing now, then we are probably half a century out from actually entirely getting our way, at the national level.

It's not ever going to happen if we don't start taking some initial steps based on a solid grounding in history.

My tones of urgency are based on the fact that we have to start now for anything to change at all while I am still alive.
What you need are accredited and certified biologists and animal behaviorists to help your cause. To conduct published research and studies that prove that animals can consent to sex with humans. The big problem to normal people is that they think sex with animals is cruelty and rape. A lot of people will listen to scientists, though. If you can get scientists on your side then you will have a much easier time getting society to accept zoosexuality as a normal sexuality.
 
Science and research isn't done for free; expenses, including a payroll have to come from somewhere. With the polarization going on in both the US and the UK, among other places, what funding will be forthcoming? NO one is going to fund these sorts of studies, as needed as they are, with public opinion being so easily manipulated. "Cancel Culture" seems to work real hard on sexual subjects between two humans....they'd go absolutely apeshit over THIS topic in a public sense. It doesn't matter why the polarization has becomer the new norm, although given its scope and parameters, I suspect its being fostered by whatever organization replaced the KGB/GRU. Regardless, its here, and showing no sign of going back to reasonable soon. Bear in mind that even with a more reasonable discourse, say pre internet, it wasn't an easy topic to access, except in bus station news stands...Any hope of progress will come from strengthening the Privacy statutes, which is doable. Right now Facebook and its ilk are all on a hotseat over a number of things....privacy is one of them: truth is another....keeping their feet to the fire on privacy ought to be a first order of business for any free people. People like Zuckerberg aren't doing any favors for anyone but themselves....as long as there's a profit in data mining, which is a for of espionage all on its own, our privacy will dwindle a little more each day.

Insofar as the Lie detector tests for clearances are concerned,despicable though some examiners are, the one that took the cake was when a friend of mine, who was apparently not reacting to questions as the tech thought he should, was asked "When was the last time you watched your mother fuck the dog?" THAT got a reaction. My friend had his clearance temporarily suspended after he kicked the chicken soup out of the examining staff.
The Technician was removed from that MOS, and my friend reinstated after about five months...This occurred in 1975.
 
Well if no one wants to pay researchers to conduct research, then there is no hope in getting zoosex stuff normalized. So be it.
 
Well if no one wants to pay researchers to conduct research, then there is no hope in getting zoosex stuff normalized. So be it.
There will be. As soon as we have clearly established who our real allies are, we will start making connections. People that tend to befriend weirdoes become either artists or scientists.
 
Still ain't gonna generate funding, friend. Though youre right, perhaps, about friendships and flocking, where does this idea of allies come from? Sounds like Fantasyland. Why should ANYbody risk his/her life and reputation to take up a cause that has next to no acceptance outside our narrow little Community? It is STILL all about the power of numbers, which we don't have. Not in population, not in finance, not in any real unity. We agree on little, within our group, and show no sign of finding a position of the kind of unity that builds any kind of strength. We reject our own because they happen to be female.....some one got told the other day to shut up because she's a donkey fucker? Really? We're going to find allies and build on THAT? I beg to differ, as Doc Holiday said. Cloud Coocooland lies in that direction. German zoos may have found a pathway for themselves; it seems to consist in the majority ignoring them in hopes that they'll die off, or at least will not sully their thoughts with dealing with them....there are other problems in that geographic area, such as Putin, which are far more pressing, for the foreseeable future. Assigning too much importance to little things, and seeing political gains where there aren't any is quite "internet generational". As a group, we were safer when we did not flock together; we were less obtrusive, less offensive, and less threatening to society, because we were less known. Technology is not our friend. Bad examples multiply exponentially; good ones reduce in inverse proportion. No funding operation, no Venture Capitalist with a hope of growing his own capital is going to take on unfounded risk; that those people are NOT kicking our doors in, begging to do the research should be telling you something that you aren't getting.
 
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There will be. As soon as we have clearly established who our real allies are, we will start making connections. People that tend to befriend weirdoes become either artists or scientists.

I think the reason more scientific studies haven't been made about zoos is because zoos aren't on the "radar" of most people (not purely due to hostility).

Getting back to the main subject of this thread: any thoughts about how to make a zoo "legal defense fund" for fighting anti-zoo laws in court?
 
Same old arguments, different day... Sure, I'll out myself for a "cause" because I have nothing better to do. Yes, I'll make my life even harder than it already is, just to make a fool out of myself and prevent any chance of ever being employed or treated like a regular person again.

What in the living hell is it going to take to make these "zoo activists" realize the errors in their thinking? Sigh. What's worse is they don't even practice what they preach! It's a tragedy.
 
Same old arguments, different day... Sure, I'll out myself for a "cause" because I have nothing better to do. Yes, I'll make my life even harder than it already is, just to make a fool out of myself and prevent any chance of ever being employed or treated like a regular person again.

you forgot "And get my animals confiscated, sexually mutilated, and/or killed". I'm sure they feel ever so much better about being dead since it was "for a cause"...

What in the living hell is it going to take to make these "zoo activists" realize the errors in their thinking? Sigh. What's worse is they don't even practice what they preach! It's a tragedy.

One word: Years.

Years of growing up and seeing the world for what it really is right now, rather than the fantasy-land they think it ought to be .

My money says that most of them are early-mid 20's, just discovered that it can be nice to put their pecker in the pooch, or vice-versa, and haven't realized just how much is at stake. The majority of them have no animals of their own, and thus, nothing to lose. Give 'em 10-15 years - if they make it that long without getting themselves busted and/or their critters - assuming they have any - taken away, they'll figure things out. Darwin in action, baby...

I was there myself, years ago - and what a young dumb and fulla cum idiot I was then. I look back and almost have to wonder why somebody didn't hunt me down and feed me to the hogs!

Give 'em time - they'll grow out of their foolishness. Or they'll take themselves out of "the game". Either way, so long as folk like you and I stay safe, the worst that can happen is we read about another idjit that got caught giving Rover a bone.
 
I am 36 and an owner, and I was a zoo at 14. I also have a cautious nature, and I think in generations and half-centuries, not in weeks or months. I also think in terms of the intervening periods of time.

Hopelessness is never genuinely realistic. It is the snakeoil distilled from impatience. It is the disappointment of a fool that thinks that a generation may as well be forever.

The reality is that sticking our heads in the sand and running around playing a stupid game based on codes and secret door-knocks is a stupid idea that has been tried before. Secretive or insular subcultures ultimately scare the shit out of the society around them. If we scurried around playing that game long enough, then people would be calling us a secretive cult of devil worshipers that recruit children. It might not happen in a week or even a vicennium, but the next generation that had suffered some hardship and needed a scapegoat would turn on us for that childishness. It is dangerous and creates a toxic subculture that empowers blackmailers and manipulative lunatics.

And once you get the culture of secrecy started, the conspiracy theories get started, and before you know it, people are going to see us slithering into their homes every time their child happens to grope a dog. An invisible minority group is always vulnerable to being portrayed as monsters because, without any of us willing to speak for themselves, those that prey upon the fears and insecurities of others will speak for us.

A very slow, sober, patient, and careful campaign to make inroads for being more open and for improving our communication with society is what other groups have done in the past. That is the only thing that has worked before.

Pretending we are unique and that the same rules do not apply to us would be madness. All of the people here that want us to stick our heads into the sand are laboring under a perilous delusion that we are under a special set of rules, apart from the rest of society. We are not. We have to follow the same rules as everybody else.

The most realistic five-year plan for us, right now, is to get a few young zoos meeting face-to-face regularly, as equals, and actually discuss their lives and their experiences. If enough of us were working on that, steadily, then we could get that launched. Nothing else can get set into motion until that foundation has been created. The reality is that, if everybody that was involved in this conversation right now were to start on it right now, then five years is an optimistic reckoning for how long it would take to get a handful of bright, ambitious individuals meeting together in a coffee shop somewhere or a private home.

As modest as that goal sounds, it is really incredibly hard. My husband, who was one of the organizers of the first "white parties" in New York City and Miami, to battle against the AIDS epidemic, found that just getting people together to talk about something serious at all was not really as easy as it sounded. Labor needs to be invested in this.
 
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I think the reason more scientific studies haven't been made about zoos is because zoos aren't on the "radar" of most people (not purely due to hostility).

Getting back to the main subject of this thread: any thoughts about how to make a zoo "legal defense fund" for fighting anti-zoo laws in court?
We would have to get small groups of zoophiles meeting together regularly.

Here is how it works.

Let's say I somehow succeeded at getting five local kids here to meet on the first Tuesday night of every month.

Then let's say that you managed to get seven people, in your neck of the woods, to meet on the first Sunday of every month for a brunch.

And then let's say that both of those groups thereby inspired three others, each, to start doing the same thing, mostly motivated by the idea that it might be a fun idea, and each of them had an average of 6 members.

At that point, 5 + 7 + 2 * 3 * 6 = 48

Now, let's say that we all were to focus mainly NOT on our common sexuality, but let's say the main things we were interested in was keeping ourselves established in good jobs, finding good veterinary care, and practical things in life. This kind of talking and thinking works. People that are really determined to have successful and comfortable lives can always have them if they want to. It is getting them to want it that is hard.

Well, over a course of a couple of decades, us 48 people would slowly develop a sort of a reputation for being fashionable and elegant and cool. Coming across as cool takes money. This is a truism. Before long, you would have other bandwagon individuals saying, "These guys obviously have their shit together," so within a generation, we had little organizations, loosely interconnected but autonomous, with similar beliefs and goals but ultimately capable of acting independently without central direction, all over the world.

And then let's imagine, maybe 45-55 years from now, that someone named Nancy Smith that had gotten into trouble when she was younger had gone to law school, turned her life around, and was starting to improve her outlook, but then she realized that you can't easily get admitted to the bar if you have a felony conviction on your record.

Well, she could tap me on the shoulder, and she could say, "You don't know anyone that has enough money to weather an appeal, do you?" and I would say, "Well, we couldn't come up with that much by ourselves, but my friend @Zoo50 knows a few more people."

And then let's say that there was a lot of cross-talk between about 8 different groups that, by then, had about 12 regularly attending, relatively affluent members. That comes to 96, so let's round it out to 100. With 100 people that have above-average incomes pulling out a little bit of money each, over a course of several months to a year, enough money for financing a successful appeal could be brought together.

Well, let's say that all of us decided that we would all get together and have a series of fundraiser parties, all in the name of helping this one woman get admitted to the bar, and we managed to pull together enough money, just enough, to get her case into the court of appeals so that she could get a lawyer to go before a panel of judges to talk about the conflicts between the current anti-zoophile laws and the country's constitution.

That panel of judges might not like a bunch of dog-fuckers even a little bit, but on the other hand, they would understand, because they are judges, that Nancy Smith's attorney has a pretty valid point, that punishing the things that dog-fuckers do in their private homes was never really intended to be within the scope of what the law of the land was really intended to do. They might not like us, and they might not sympathize with us. However, they would be forced to realize, since we had a very good lawyer making the case, that we were indeed correct.

And then, once we had proved that we could win, imagine, every time someone got arrested on discriminatory charges, all of the other small organizations we had inspired started pooling their resources together to counter-attack, WHAM! WHAM! WHAM! one after the other because we had demonstrated to the world that they could indeed win. The anti-zoophile crusaders would have so many court cases on their hands, they could never keep up. They could never manage to be everywhere at one time. They would break down. We would win.

However, that entire chain of events has to start with you and me organizing those people together, not to raise money but just to meet together, once in a while, and if we start now, we will both be lucky to get it moving in about five years. This is the hardest shit in the world to ever do, getting people to meet together as equals to talk about something serious.

If you don't believe me that it's hard @Zoo50, then just try it. If you get it done in five years, after the kinds of setbacks and desertions and frustrations that are involved, then by the time you managed to organize it, I can guarantee you that you will look back and say, "I cannot believe that I only took five years." That's assuming you started on it in earnest now. As modest as that sounds, we can't do jack shit without it.

And our message has to be, "If you want to fuck a dog, you should fuck your own dog. If you want a dog, you should be steadily employed." This has to be our core belief and value, as a community. Fighting in court takes money, and for us to have money, we have to mentor young people on just the basics of life. Over the next 50 years, we are going to have to try to produce a generation of "stereotypical rich zoos," and we are going to have to press the message, to the people, that being a zoophile and not having a steady income is the most unrealistic thing that you can possibly imagine. We have to press the message, to all young zoophiles, if you want to fuck a dog, if you don't have a job, you shouldn't be thinking about fucking a dog: you should focus on getting a job. Stop shamefully masturbating to cheap and tawdry edgelording schlock porn, which is really the antithesis of genuine creativity, that is drawn by "artists" that really have contempt for your existence and who would take smug satisfaction in seeing you dead, and establish yourself in some steady regular employment. Live with your head held high.
 
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Here is how it works.

Let's say I somehow succeeded at getting five local kids here to meet on the first Tuesday night of every month.

Then let's say that you managed to get seven people, in your neck of the woods, to meet on the first Sunday of every month for a brunch.

And then let's say that both of those groups thereby inspired three others, each, to start doing the same thing, mostly motivated by the idea that it might be a fun idea, and each of them had an average of 6 members.

At that point, 5 + 7 + 2 * 3 * 6 = 48

Now, let's say that we all were to focus mainly NOT on our common sexuality, but let's say the main things we were interested in was keeping ourselves established in good jobs, finding good veterinary care, and practical things in life. This kind of talking and thinking works. People that are really determined to have successful and comfortable lives can always have them if they want to. It is getting them to want it that is hard.

The issue is, what if one of those hypothetical 48 people is not legitimate, and is undercover law enforcement? This is the Catch-22 of the current situation for zoos -- zoos need to organize to fight the anti-zoo laws in court, but the laws largely prevent / discourage zoos from organizing in the first place.
 
The issue is, what if one of those hypothetical 48 people is not legitimate, and is undercover law enforcement? This is the Catch-22 of the current situation for zoos -- zoos need to organize to fight the anti-zoo laws in court, but the laws largely prevent / discourage zoos from organizing in the first place.
All the more reason to keep our culture one that is based on humanizing and mentorship. The early Mattachine society used the same method. They were actually very critical of the homosexual community being so sexually focused.

If we want society to see us as people, we need to learn how to see each other as people.

That will also confuse any investigators. If they came to investigate us and found a bunch of people talking about job leads, hobbies, and the weather, they would think they had gotten the wrong bunch!
 
@mares4me

The trick is that the Mattachine society didn't do what they did in order to start this huge movement. They did it for themselves.

If I can get a few boys here meeting in person, I don't want them to even think about a half a century of achievements, most of the time. I want them to just be there with each other for an hour a month and to feel grateful. They shouldn't have to think about big plans or their duty to the next generation. They shouldn't have to deal with all of this shit that our generation dumped on them. They should just spend a while feeling like normal, ordinary kids. They deserve that, not because they need to be part of some sort of fucking revolution but because it is right. Because it is moral.

I know, since I have a working knowledge of history, that it just might start something bigger, but to truly make it work, it's got to be about benefitting them, for their own sakes.

Real revolution doesn't look special or fancy when it is happening. It shouldn't.

Real revolution feels like waking up from a bad dream, and we remember that everything is really still normal.

You know it's a real revolution when you look back on what you used to be doing, and you say, "What the fuck were we thinking, before? Were we crazy?"

As a gay man that came out as a gay man, I look back on the bizarre life that I lived as a closeted gay man, and I feel stupid for living like that. I feel like a blithering imbecile for ever living like that, in the closet. It is hard to imagine that I ever did live that way. I remember it almost like a black-and-white movie. Everything about being in the closet is just bizarre.

If you can get a few other people in your life to make you realize how bizarre it is that you have to hide being a zoo from anybody, then let me tell you that you will feel a hell of a lot better, and you'll wake up to the fact that it really is kind of a bonkers that you have to hide it from anybody. When you talk to another person that you do have to hide it from after that, then it will click in your head, that this is insanity.

But if you do it, then do it for you. Do it for your own benefit.

But thank you.
 
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@mares4me

The trick is that the Mattachine society didn't do what they did in order to start this huge movement. They did it for themselves.

As a gay man that came out as a gay man, I look back on the bizarre life that I lived as a closeted gay man, and I feel stupid for living like that. I feel like a blithering imbecile for ever living like that, in the closet. It is hard to imagine that I ever did live that way. I remember it almost like a black-and-white movie. Everything about being in the closet is just bizarre.

I can see the comparison of zoo with LGBT making sense, and I think most zoos see that comparison as making sense. However, I'm not convinced that society will see it the same way, and the outcome of zoo may end up being very different than that of LGBT.

Keep in mind that zoosexuality is not a recognized sexual orientation. It would be good if scientists and people in the medical field would recognize it first (so that it is no longer a "philia").
 
The point is that the same rules apply to us that apply to everybody. We have to follow them. Not just LGBT, not just African-Americans, but hundreds of religious groups, subcultures, everybody. The rules for getting along with society are well documented.
 
A court challenge in California (to challenge California's new anti-zoo law, passed in October 2019) is badly needed, but I fear that the "status quo" of nothing being done to challenge these laws will continue. These laws are unconstitutional, yet until these laws are challenged, zoos will continue to be persecuted.
 
@Zoo50, the first people we need to win over is the zoo community itself. That's what podcasts like Zooier Than Thou are about. Right now, we can't even get most zoos to believe that other zoos are okay or people that are worth knowing. They hide behind blackout curtains, they think that most of the rest of us are horrible or mentally ill, and they are afraid that they might be, also.

I keep saying, we are a generation out from weathering a major court battle. Those of us that give a flying fuck are going to have to be the role-models for the upcoming generation, and then we are going to have to wait for them to get old enough to be socially conscious.

Fun little shows like Zooier Than Thou are so important because stuff that is actually entertaining and fun and nice gets younger zoos in their late teens and early 20's--who are not even supposed to be socially conscious yet because kids are not supposed to have to worry about this kind of shit--to believe that the zoo community can be really great and really cool, so when they get older, they'll have enough of an investment in their community to make a stand.

We can beat this in the courts. I know that we can. It's building up the will to do it that is going to take so much time.
 
There's a huge difference between the LGBT and zoo community. The former doesn't treat their disabled members like shit. Instead of looking at them with disdain, they try to help, even offering words of encouragement.

And this is why zoos will never get anywhere with the law. You can't treat the most vulnerable among you this way and expect everyone else to see you as good people. It doesn't work like that, especially in today's anti-discrimination climate. You'll only get laughed at.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is...

If you want to be accepted by society, you need to be more inclusive. You need to stop dividing among yourselves. A house cannot stand on a shaky foundation.
 
@mares4me, I just want to tell you how much I appreciate what you are saying, here.

I am going to take off on that, and I am going to say that I think that many of our mental problems are related to our community being repressed and isolated and us not really having anybody in our lives that we can be open with about it. I honestly and truly think that it screws with our mental functioning.

Therefore, we have to accept that zoos often do have mental issues.

And you have no idea how bad off I was in my late teens, @mares4me. It sounds like you are not so great off, yourself. When I was in my late teens, though, I most likely would have really been better off living for a while in a group home. At least there, I might have gotten sufficient services to have maybe gotten me to a level of functioning where I could straighten out my life a little bit faster, and I might not have put myself in such seriously dangerous, even life-threateningly dangerous situations.

I did eventually reach a level of mental functioning where I honestly feel that I am not just doing normally. I am actually doing extremely well, right now, and I am very optimistic at this point in my life. If the people that I had had in my life, over the past several years, had given up on me, then I never would have managed to reach that point.

I honestly think that a mixture of homophobia and also being completely out in the wilderness about my zooness, during my upbringing, had a severely detrimental effect on me, though. What was bizarre was that something terrible had been done to me, but I was being judged for it, not the people that had done it to me. I had and still have barely contained rage in me over that, and I am really working my ass off to try to find positive things that I can do with that rage energy so that I won't hurt somebody. I honestly do not want to hurt somebody, even someone that has wronged me. Two wrongs do not make a right, but it just makes two wrongs. If I want to do right, then I should start by doing right. That's where those surges of adrenaline need to be directed.

We are not going to fix anything by rubbing salt on the wounds.
 
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