animalzrule
Tourist
There's no difference for those people. If it involves the extraction of something from the animal, they're against it.
I am very scared of the vegan movement, they will try to take our right away to have companion animals.
- Thread starter Coolboyman
- Start date
There's no difference for those people. If it involves the extraction of something from the animal, they're against it.
animalzrule
Tourist
I plan to with my cow.
For SOME people. You can’t throw them all together. I don’t believe in drinking cow milk but I’m not against it should it be extracted ethically.
Yea but that would never happen - its all about the dollar
That’s true, but I think, as animal lovers, we should always fight for what’s best for them. I know we can never change the world completely but every life matters in my opinion.
caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Your abysmal ignorance is showing. Deer, like most "meat animals", are prey species. They breed at far above simple replacement rates because they are born to be someone's dinner. Humans killed off the "someone" (predators) to eliminate competition. If we stop killing them before there are sufficient other predators established, the prey species will breed and increase until their numbers are controlled by starvation. That means piles of rotting carcasses everywhere. Who is that good for?
Now, let's get those predators going in sufficient numbers to bring the prey species down to a manageable level after humans stop eating them. What are all of those predators going to eat after the prey species are reduced? There's only one other source of meat available, you and your children. You ready for direct participation in the food chain?
But of course we can do this in a gradual way, backing off on the meat dishes as we slowly bring the natural predators up to balance the birth/death rates. Then what are we going to eat? All of those freed prey animals have to eat something so where are we going to do the agriculture that we need to eat? How are we going to keep them out of it until we have a chance to harvest it?
There is no solution that you can offer that does not necessitate the death of three quarters of the human race. So, do you own a pale horse?
caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Actually, modern dairy practices are more about government regulation to insure the safety and purity of the food supply. For example, how long are you going to last completely sterilizing your hands between every cow?
Lma
All of this so-called damage to the natural order that you reference was done by humans. Letting nature re-balance itself isn’t going to make you part of the food chain but if you want to go out into the deep wilderness with dangerous carnivores maybe you should be.
once again as a reminder - there are less predators in some areas because of human interference. There are less prey in some areas because of human interference. Some animals are extinct or endangered because of human interference. You’re the bad guy here.
lmao I’m ignorant and you’re freaking out that 75% of the human race is going to be eaten if we stop hunting deer? Nothing you said makes any sense. First of all, we have animals that eat dead bodies. Secondly, we aren’t going to see a massive pile-up of carcasses because as more die off less of them will breed (humans have kept deer populations high so that we can hunt them.) Thirdly, I can think of no time in history in any ecosystem where predators somehow managed to cause near extinction in prey leading them to change diet. The only instances in which severe damage to ecosystems occurred was when humans got involved and tried to fix them to fit our own needs. Fourthly, people already have ways to manage their crops and keep them strong and not reduced by animals. How is that going to change all of a sudden?
All of this so-called damage to the natural order that you reference was done by humans. Letting nature re-balance itself isn’t going to make you part of the food chain but if you want to go out into the deep wilderness with dangerous carnivores maybe you should be.
once again as a reminder - there are less predators in some areas because of human interference. There are less prey in some areas because of human interference. Some animals are extinct or endangered because of human interference. You’re the bad guy here.
caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
The trend continues! Seventy five percent of the human race is going to die in the war over the remaining resources after you take most of the existing resources away from humans to allow all of the "wild" animals to eat.
And so on and so on. . .
BTW, If you eat, you are part of the food chain by definition. The question is, "at what level?"
We control all the resources already! We don’t even need meat to survive so not hunting isn’t going to hurt us. AT ALL. We even control natural parks and screw with population control!
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shrimpsoda
Guest
It’s only the internet ones that are annoying.
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shrimpsoda
Guest
I
For example, I love chickens and I hate the egg industry. I haven’t bought store eggs in YEARS. I’ve had my own birds to give me eggs for almost 13 years. I breed my own birds or I get new birds locally, so I also don’t support hatchery businesses. Sometimes I will have my birds butchered if needed, so I’m not supporting the factory farming industry either. This is the right way to do it. I also grow my own green onions, chives, hot peppers, eggplants, mint, various herbs, etc. for when I cook. City and suburban vegans are simply unable to live this way due to the many restrictions where they live. Living in cities and suburban areas is also really bad for the environment, as those areas produce the most trash and pollution, but environment-caring city goers refuse to move to more rural areas due to ignorance and fear. First thing they’ll say is there’s no jobs.. not true if they’re willing to learn a trade. Welders are needed and they make good money. Construction, plumbing, electricians, steel workers, engineers— all needed. All make good money. You can buy/rent a property and grow your own food. But city vegans make excuses.
It’s just common sense. UNLESS vegans are growing their OWN vegetables and fruits on their property, then they are buying grocery supply that comes from farms that kill species. I live in the country/rural and lots of people here grow their own food, but very few are vegan. We still eat meat out here— some of us raise our own meat and eggs, or we hunt/fish for our food. It’s mainly city people who are vegans.
For example, I love chickens and I hate the egg industry. I haven’t bought store eggs in YEARS. I’ve had my own birds to give me eggs for almost 13 years. I breed my own birds or I get new birds locally, so I also don’t support hatchery businesses. Sometimes I will have my birds butchered if needed, so I’m not supporting the factory farming industry either. This is the right way to do it. I also grow my own green onions, chives, hot peppers, eggplants, mint, various herbs, etc. for when I cook. City and suburban vegans are simply unable to live this way due to the many restrictions where they live. Living in cities and suburban areas is also really bad for the environment, as those areas produce the most trash and pollution, but environment-caring city goers refuse to move to more rural areas due to ignorance and fear. First thing they’ll say is there’s no jobs.. not true if they’re willing to learn a trade. Welders are needed and they make good money. Construction, plumbing, electricians, steel workers, engineers— all needed. All make good money. You can buy/rent a property and grow your own food. But city vegans make excuses.
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shrimpsoda
Guest
We’re going to be like European countries soon and will want to break off from the main form of government to govern ourselves. To take control and put our people first. Those of us who want to put American people first will be called extremists and “dangerous”.
G
Gigelina
Guest
well im not scared at all - end of story
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shrimpsoda
Guest
Some deer are invasive species and need to be hunted. I had an acquaintance from HI who would hunt deer on a HI island— I don’t remember which one, but he said that the deer are not native to the island, and pose a threat to the prehistoric, endangered plants that grow on the island. The deer were brought to the island’s king years ago, as a “gift” to the king, and well those deer got busy. The deer will actually jump over the fences protecting the endangered plants to eat them. He would bring it back to the mainland here and he would smoke it. It was the best deer meat I have ever had, tasted 100x better than mainland deer. My older brother hunts and the deer here in CA tastes like crap.
Well, we were all illegal at one point. What’s wrong with people wanting a better life? Instead of deporting people why don’t we try to help them gain rightful citizenship? I know a ton of Americans who want to bitch about Mexicans stealing jobs and then not want to work themselves. Meanwhile, we have a ton of Republicans backing Trump who statistically lies every 30 seconds, uses his platform to promote violence (and we now have the largest rise in white supremacy and misogynist groups in decades), and abuses his power. He said it didn’t matter if Kavanaugh actually raped a woman, and despite republicans hating Obama for his use of executive orders Trump set a record within his first month of presidency with them. Never have I met a more ignorant, bigoted, and hypocritical bunch than the conservative and Republican Party and no, I’m not a democrat either because both factions have their corruption but I can’t take a single republican seriously. It’s no surprise I’m seeing a bunch of zoo hypocrisy here given that we are now talking about how guns don’t kill people and why immigrants are bad.
And why are those deer there!? You said it yourself - a human did it.
SociallyHawkward
Tourist
This is a long post so I'll put it in a spoiler.
Anyway, I won't be giving up meat or any other animal product, despite my love for animals. More to the topic of this thread, I would not give up being owned by parrots for anything, even though I know most vegans don't hate the concept of pets.
The industrial animal farming industry has many problems.
Animals are not treated ethically in the slightest. Beef cows are confined shoulder-to-shoulder and can't move. Chickens are packed tightly together, and end up attacking each other. Hundreds of millions of male chicks are killed a year because they aren't suitable for meat production. After birth, calves are separated from dairy cows.
To prevent these animals from getting sick antibiotics are put into their feed, 80% of US antibiotic use is from livestock. This makes it a contributing factor towards antibiotics resistance. For example, resistance to Colistin, a last-resort antibiotic, was found recently. What was the cause? Farmers had been giving Colistin to animals for years, and resistance eventually made it to human pathogens.
The industry has a very large environmental impact. 15% of greenhouse gas emissions are created by the meat industry. 26% of Earth's landmass is used for livestock. 27% of freshwater consumption is from livestock.
So, the answer is to stop eating animal products, right? Imo, no. In the short term it may help, but I'd argue that it doesn't help in the long-term and that there are better alternatives.
Why? I'll first address the environmental aspect, specifically land. 11% of land is used for crop production including (I assume) the crops being used for livestock. Can we more efficiently use land for growing crops? Of course. GMO crops, whether you like them or not, can and have increased yield. Vertical farming methods such as hydroponics and aeroponics can reduce area significantly, some speculate by up to 20 times (although I couldn't find a source for that). This would help with our habitat loss problem.
The treatment of animals, I suspect, will get better in the coming years. The reason I suspect this is the invention of cultured meat, meat grown in a lab setting. Various startups are working on mass production right now, so it likely won't be long before we have at least affordable lab-grown meat. This wouldn't cause factory farming to cease, because most likely it'll still be cheaper and some may find lab meat unethical. However, if people buy it enough over conventional meat, it could mean less animals are farmed, potentially giving them better treatment.
For greenhouse gasses we can use genetic engineering. Various methods are being testing for this, but this post is long enough. XD
Or we could all stop eating meat, right?
One problem with not eating meat is that our ancestors evolved to eat meat. As a consequence, there are some nutrients we need that are either hard to get from plants or not found at all in them. Vitamin B12 is absent in plants for example. Many nutrients are more bio-available in meat than in plants, meaning it takes more time and energy for your body to get less from plants. Examples are Iron, Zinc, and Selenium. On top of this, plants containing protein often lack a few amino acids, whereas meat has all of them. You have to be very careful, or you may end up with a deficiency in something.
If all humans stopped eating animal products, as others pointed out, most livestock would die anyway. What do think would happen to the roughly 30 billion animals being kept as livestock? If eating their products was outlawed, there's no point for big companies to feed them anymore. They'd all be slaughtered and their meat wasted. You might be able to save some by adopting them, but you cannot possibly save all of them. That's not to say I think they'd go extinct, enough people like them as pets (chickens for example, are very adorable).
Animals are not treated ethically in the slightest. Beef cows are confined shoulder-to-shoulder and can't move. Chickens are packed tightly together, and end up attacking each other. Hundreds of millions of male chicks are killed a year because they aren't suitable for meat production. After birth, calves are separated from dairy cows.
To prevent these animals from getting sick antibiotics are put into their feed, 80% of US antibiotic use is from livestock. This makes it a contributing factor towards antibiotics resistance. For example, resistance to Colistin, a last-resort antibiotic, was found recently. What was the cause? Farmers had been giving Colistin to animals for years, and resistance eventually made it to human pathogens.
The industry has a very large environmental impact. 15% of greenhouse gas emissions are created by the meat industry. 26% of Earth's landmass is used for livestock. 27% of freshwater consumption is from livestock.
So, the answer is to stop eating animal products, right? Imo, no. In the short term it may help, but I'd argue that it doesn't help in the long-term and that there are better alternatives.
Why? I'll first address the environmental aspect, specifically land. 11% of land is used for crop production including (I assume) the crops being used for livestock. Can we more efficiently use land for growing crops? Of course. GMO crops, whether you like them or not, can and have increased yield. Vertical farming methods such as hydroponics and aeroponics can reduce area significantly, some speculate by up to 20 times (although I couldn't find a source for that). This would help with our habitat loss problem.
The treatment of animals, I suspect, will get better in the coming years. The reason I suspect this is the invention of cultured meat, meat grown in a lab setting. Various startups are working on mass production right now, so it likely won't be long before we have at least affordable lab-grown meat. This wouldn't cause factory farming to cease, because most likely it'll still be cheaper and some may find lab meat unethical. However, if people buy it enough over conventional meat, it could mean less animals are farmed, potentially giving them better treatment.
For greenhouse gasses we can use genetic engineering. Various methods are being testing for this, but this post is long enough. XD
Or we could all stop eating meat, right?
One problem with not eating meat is that our ancestors evolved to eat meat. As a consequence, there are some nutrients we need that are either hard to get from plants or not found at all in them. Vitamin B12 is absent in plants for example. Many nutrients are more bio-available in meat than in plants, meaning it takes more time and energy for your body to get less from plants. Examples are Iron, Zinc, and Selenium. On top of this, plants containing protein often lack a few amino acids, whereas meat has all of them. You have to be very careful, or you may end up with a deficiency in something.
If all humans stopped eating animal products, as others pointed out, most livestock would die anyway. What do think would happen to the roughly 30 billion animals being kept as livestock? If eating their products was outlawed, there's no point for big companies to feed them anymore. They'd all be slaughtered and their meat wasted. You might be able to save some by adopting them, but you cannot possibly save all of them. That's not to say I think they'd go extinct, enough people like them as pets (chickens for example, are very adorable).
Anyway, I won't be giving up meat or any other animal product, despite my love for animals. More to the topic of this thread, I would not give up being owned by parrots for anything, even though I know most vegans don't hate the concept of pets.
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caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
I love your idea so much I'm already doing it myself, *BUT*, there's something else that you need to know. You see, I'm a real farmer. I'm one of the people that send the groceries to the grocery store and I do it using tractors that till hundreds of acres per day and plant by the square mile. I personally feed thousands of humans.
If agriculture went exclusively to the methods you and I prefer for the quality they produce, I couldn't feed more than a few dozen at most. While I don't really mind that, there is the problem of what to do with excess humans. Who are we going to dispense with? All the fancy doctors in the medical center? All the learned researchers at the university? The military? The only ones I'd be willing to do without are about half of the politicians.
T
Tailo
Guest
And common sense is surprisingly often wrong. We do not need to speculate in this case, because there are studies, and @HyperWoof was so kind to provide a link. Have a look into it.
1KnottyGirl
Zooville Settler
Sorry guys but I tried the vegetarian thing for 2 years and went back to eating meat a year ago. I have lots more energy, sleep better at night, and have clearer skin. Plus I don't have near as many headaches even though I have a more stressful job now. I feel much healthier now.
It may offend you but as for me I'll be a meat eater the rest of my life.
It may offend you but as for me I'll be a meat eater the rest of my life.
Meat-eating / slaughter practices (which involve farm animals such as pigs and cows) require far more farmland than non-animal sources -- and that means the destruction of more forests.
Remember that the (major) dairy industry is linked to veal (slaughter of calves).
Deer numbers are artificially increased by hunters -- so ultimately, hunting is not required. Hunting should be banned, because it involves killing animals for no justifiable reason (and it is unethical).
Hunting, fishing and slaughter are not required to survive -- and because these practices are speciesist, cruel and unethical, they should not occur.
Deer do not need to be hunted. As I said, deer numbers are artificially increased so that hunters can hunt them. Nature can take care of its own. Also, an animal's life is more important than how it "tastes". Don't treat animals as objects.
Then I guess you are a hypocrite -- you claim to love animals, yet you support killing them and eating them, which is the opposite of loving them. Also, much of what you stated in your "spoiler" isn't true -- humans do not need to eat meat to live, and eating a vegan or vegetarian diet is much healthier than eating meat.
Your attitude is a selfish one -- you shouldn't think about your own interests alone, and you ought to consider the interests of non-human animals. If you truly care about the well-being of other animals, then you should stop eating meat. Saying "I sleep better" is a selfish attitude -- the life of an animal is more important than one's sleep. Also, I'm not convinced that your diet is entirely the reason for poor sleep and lack of energy. As I said, people can be vegan / vegetarian and be healthy at the same time. I think you're just making excuses to keep eating meat.
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caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Please, not you too. Find a grade school education somewhere and look up "prey species". You want see what an unhunted prey species looks like? Try Australia and rabbits. NOBODY is artificially increasing the numbers of deer and other game animals.
HyperWoof
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
hahahahah Oh my fuck it doesn't get any better than this. Holy shit. Deer numbers are I N C R E A S E D by hunters?? Are you suggesting when we shoot one, the body turns into two deer? Or do we sing love songs to the deer to get them to fuck more frequently?
Deer population is kept in check by hunters, not increased, you goons. Seriously where are you getting this shit
You're perpetrating the typical Vegan stereotype "I am morally superior than you because I don't eat meat, can't you tell by how good my farts smell?"
See this article:
Hunting has increased deer population, not reduced it
[...] prior to the DEP's involvement in "deer management," there were fewer deer in the...
Deer hunting has made population issues worse, not better.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that killing an animal for any reason is unethical in and of itself.
Also, PETA says the following:
"Contrary to what hunters often say in defense of their cruel pastime, hunting has nothing to do with “conservation” or “population control.” In fact, animals are often specially bred and raised for hunters to kill."
HyperWoof
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Typical illegal immigrant defender. Using words like hateful, racist and making it seem like they are against regular immigration when in fact, it's just I L L E G A L immigration we have an issue with.
And no "we" weren't once all illegal citizens, what is that even supposed to mean?
HyperWoof
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
See this article:
Hunting has increased deer population, not reduced it
[...] prior to the DEP's involvement in "deer management," there were fewer deer in the...www.greenwichtime.com
Deer hunting has made population issues worse, not better.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that killing an animal for any reason is unethical in and of itself.
That article literally says the same thing we've been saying. The deer will produce until they starve to death and numbers are reduced to appropriate values, then the cycle continues again. If I was a deer. I'd take a near instant death by bullet over slow starvation and disease any day of the week. Plus that meat that I harvest from the deer, makes it so I don't buy any farmed meat for a good long while.
By the way, over 90% of conservation funds come from us nasty hunters
You know you're brainwashed when you're quoting PETA. An organization that fills roadside dumpsters with bodies of adoptable cats and dogs. Fucking hypocrite
That article literally says the same thing we've been saying. The deer will produce until they starve to death and numbers are reduced to appropriate values, then the cycle continues again. If I was a deer. I'd take a near instant death by bullet over slow starvation and disease any day of the week. Plus that meat that I harvest from the deer, makes it so I don't buy any farmed meat for a good long while.
By the way, over 90% of conservation funds come from us nasty hunters
You know you're brainwashed when you're quoting PETA. An organization that fills roadside dumpsters with bodies of adoptable cats and dogs. Fucking hypocrite
If you claim to love animals, but also kill them, that is a hypocritical position. Killing an animal is unethical in and of itself. As I said, it is not necessary to kill animals -- so hunting, slaughter, etc. should not be tolerated. It is cruel and immoral to kill an animal for any reason (in the same way that it is cruel and immoral to kill a dog). Also, the notion that hunting is "pro-conservation" is a myth.
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caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Please take note of a couple of hard personal facts:
I don't kill the ones I love and I don't love the ones I kill. Considering a given species as a monolith is the definition of "prejudice".
I've been an active participant in agriculture and animal management for more than fifty years now. I am an expert source.
I don't kill the ones I love and I don't love the ones I kill. Considering a given species as a monolith is the definition of "prejudice".
I've been an active participant in agriculture and animal management for more than fifty years now. I am an expert source.