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Vets and Suspision

silvershadow777 said:
The fact is that the risks of NOT spaying or neutering are more severe.
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Can be, not necessarily are; it greatly depends on a number of factors that need to be taken into account on an individual basis.
It is important to not lose sight of the fact that for some, spaying can have serious, life-threatening consequences as well as being a source of life-saving consequences.

I don't think it is unethical to leave a bitch intact, especially if they are not a high-risk breed. That said, and the points I keep stressing are there there ARE risks; many of those risks become greater as she ages. It is not just about convenience; anyone who says otherwise is woefully ignorant. Anyone who's deciding to keep an intact bitch who doesn't know the early signs of pyometra needs to learn ASAP.

There are trade offs and reasons to spay and not to spay that need to be figured out with the bitch's best interests in mind. It's OK to want sex, I do. It's OK to choose to not modify a healthy dog who's not a high risk, but one needs to understand the risks and reevaluate year after year. It's not selfish to think, "Holy shit that could suck, I don't want that.", but it is when that is your primary motivator, your primary motivator should be, "I love this bitch, I do not want to lose her; I should make informed decisions about her health, even if it sucks for me."


Pyometra - American College of Veterinary Surgeons

www.acvs.org www.acvs.org

Canine pyometra: Early recognition and diagnosis

Find out what you need to know to identify pyometra as early as possible.
www.dvm360.com www.dvm360.com

It's OK to not know, we're all ignorant until we learn. Want me to shut up? Stop repeating the bullshit about it being only about convenience, smack that shit down when you see it and help educate the community. I expect more from zoos, we're supposed to care and love our companions more than non-zoos; step up.
 
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silvershadow777 said:
And the ethical question that comes into play here is - is it worth the risk, just so you can have sex with your pet?
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kinda narrow minded to think it's only about sex. surely there is a more logical reason to not permanently fuck up a dog's hormone levels. "sex" is probably not the reason why castration is considered mutilation and thus considered as an illegal procedure on healthy animals without a "special reason" permit in countries like germany.
egoldstein said:
There are trade offs and reasons to spay and not to spay that need to be figured out with the bitch's best interests in mind. It's OK to want sex, I do. It's OK to choose to not modify a healthy dog who's not a high risk, but one needs to understand the risks and reevaluate year after year. It's not selfish to think, "Holy shit that could suck, I don't want that.", but it is when that is your primary motivator, your primary motivator should be, "I love this bitch, I do not want to lose her; I should make informed decisions about her health, even if it sucks for me."
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probably the most sensible approach. health should always come first. regular check ups and do what needs to be done if the time comes. my girl is spayed since earlier this year, because i obviously love her way more than i love fucking her. i still think just castrating for the sake of it being "the normal" thing to do in some parts of the world is very wrong.
egoldstein said:
It's OK to not know, we're all ignorant until we learn. Want me to shut up? Stop repeating the bullshit about it being only about convenience, smack that shit down when you see it and help educate the community. I expect more from zoos, we're supposed to care and love our companions more than non-zoos; step up.
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spaying/neutering a with no signs of anything is only about convenience. i know it's wishful thinking, but knowing what to look for (especially with higher than normal risk breeds) should be a given when getting one.
 
nekdoneco123 said:
probably the most sensible approach. health should always come first. regular check ups and do what needs to be done if the time comes. my girl is spayed since earlier this year, because i obviously love her way more than i love fucking her. i still think just castrating for the sake of it being "the normal" thing to do in some parts of the world is very wrong.
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Some girls are still up for it and capable, but there are a lot of variables. There's a thread here somewhere on the topic if you haven't seen it.
Even when it isn't an option, you're absolutely right that sex is not as important and I agree wholeheartedly that spay/neuter because the person is too lazy or ignorant to do otherwise is wrong.


nekdoneco123 said:
spaying/neutering a with no signs of anything is only about convenience. i know it's wishful thinking, but knowing what to look for (especially with higher than normal risk breeds) should be a given when getting one.
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But it isn't common knowledge; this thread and many others show that this understanding is not as common as it should be. I get it, most of us don't get veterinary training and sad as it is, the standard of understanding necessary to become responsible for a life is often nothing more than meeting the purchase price. I don't think anyone here willfully doesn't give a shit, we're merely ignorant, myself included and we, as a community, need to step up and speak up about this stuff or it's going to continue to be a problem and unsuspecting zoos are going to see their beloved companions die miserable deaths. I'm not wagging my finger at people saying, "Tsk, tsk you are aren't as good as me", my passion comes from experience, there's a reason I know 2 vets can miss pyo and I really wish I had followed my gut and gone to a third (fourth, fifth,...). My motivation is to save a life and a whole lot of needless misery. We need to challenge one another to do more and be better; not to judge but point out problems so things can be improved. I want non-zoos to see that zoos are better caretakers and to do that we need to help the community learn.
 
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silvershadow777 said:
Though it would seem that you are in a position to decide that it's OK to keep them intact just so you can fulfill a fetish.
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Canines don't exactly come out of their mother's womb spayed and neutered. It's something that you, as the species with the larger prefrontal cortex and higher EQ ratio, decided to inflict upon the animal through preconceived justifications.

As mentioned, there are legitimate reasons for keeping a canine intact and there are legitimate reasons for spaying and neutering canines as well. Both have their ups and downs, but there's a reason why many European countries ban the practice for non-medical needs. Also do keep in mind that while canines are hardy animals, they still do require those sex hormones to function normally. When you remove the sexual organs their bodies will switch to taxing the adrenaline glad for said hormones. For some breeds, this will not be too detrimental, although still not good/ideal at all. While for other breeds, such as rottweilers, it is absolutely detrimental. As doing so pretty much sentences them to an earlier death from cancer eventually, especially done prior to their first heat in females and 1.5 years for males.

Also, keep in mind that my particular form of love for animals is NOT a fetish. I myself consider it a sexual orientation as does Hani Miletski.
 
FloofyNewfie said:
Canines don't exactly come out of their mother's womb spayed and neutered. It's something that you, as the species with the larger prefrontal cortex and higher EQ ratio, decided to inflict upon the animal through preconceived justifications.

As mentioned, there are legitimate reasons for keeping a canine intact and there are legitimate reasons for spaying and neutering canines as well. Both have their ups and downs, but there's a reason why many European countries ban the practice for non-medical needs. Also do keep in mind that while canines are hardy animals, they still do require those sex hormones to function normally. When you remove the sexual organs their bodies will switch to taxing the adrenaline glad for said hormones. For some breeds, this will not be too detrimental, although still not good/ideal at all. While for other breeds, such as rottweilers, it is absolutely detrimental. As doing so pretty much sentences them to an earlier death from cancer eventually, especially done prior to their first heat in females and 1.5 years for males.

Also, keep in mind that my particular form of love for animals is NOT a fetish. I myself consider it a sexual orientation as does Hani Miletski.
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The thought is good, but it seems pretty clear to me that you're trying to talk sense to someone who drank the Bob Barker kool-aid - then made a new batch, drank some more, and is now trying to foist it on everybody else.
 
OffgridK9lover said:
last week end, she was in Monday and out Tuesday night, today she's doing much better and eating more so regaining strength getting back to her normal self, I noticed her being lethargic, rapid breathing, keeping close eye on their behaivior and noting any thing odd is a life saver, the vet was glad she was at such an early stage which makes recovery much better odds
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If your vet has put her on gabapentin or any analog drugs, that'll make her a bit lethargic, woozy, and foggy headed and it will not help with hunger. Just imagine trying to enjoy a meal while dizzy, woozy, and foggy headed.

Luckily the biggest hurdle is over for her, the surgery itself. Here's to hoping that she has a speedy and easy recovery. ?
 
FloofyNewfie said:
Well damn, odd that you mentioned him yesterday, he literally just died today. Are you some kind of dark magic voodoo wizard that can kill people by just naming them?
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It came as news to me this morning - I honestly didn't know he was still alive - Somehow, I was under the impression that he'd kicked off a year or so before The Coof started making the rounds.
 
OffgridK9lover said:
well she's back to her normal self, she's done the amoxacillin course, and inhaling her food, guarding her spot on the couch, and bolting out side like normal.

So things are looking good. would like to get a second blood test done to ensure things are all stabilized.
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do keep us posted.
fingers crossed nothing shits out...
 
UR20Z said:
The thought is good, but it seems pretty clear to me that you're trying to talk sense to someone who drank the Bob Barker kool-aid - then made a new batch, drank some more, and is now trying to foist it on everybody else.
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Nope, just actual real science and not this nonsense people come up with to justify their fetishes.
 
dogluver101 said:
Who's to say just because someone keeps a dog intact doesn't mean they're doing anything sexual. If you believe that, then go over and tell your neighbor "If you're dog isn't fixed, then you're obviously fucking them"
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I'm not talking about people in general. I'm talking about people on this site.
 
silvershadow777 said:
I'm not talking about people in general. I'm talking about people on this site.
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I'm keeping the quote below so this stays in context...
silvershadow777 said:
Though it would seem that you are in a position to decide that it's OK to keep them intact just so you can fulfill a fetish.
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As has been stated serveral times, sex isn't the only reason to keep a dog intact. There are health risks with spaying and there are health risks for not spaying; both of these risks are highly variable based on breed. Rottweiler bitches for instance have a significantly increased chance of osteosarcoma and other cancers due to spaying, it's enough of a thing that even the AKC Rottweiler group recommend leaving all bitches males and females intact until 6 years of age(1); that's just for Rottweilers, other breeds have other risks that are increased due to spaying or neutering. In addition to the health risks, there are behavioral concerns one needs to be aware of; neutering is linked with increased aggression(2).

There's nothing selfish about wanting to enjoy a mutual pleasurable experience, it's only selfish if one chooses their own pleasure over the dog's health and wellbeing. Low risk breeds left intact with a caretaker who's active in their care, knows how to spot the signs, and is responsive to veterinary needs don't stand to gain much from a spay...given I don't think that covers as many people here as it should, but we're working on that. The argument that not spaying is only about sex is as much bullshit as the claim that spaying is only for convenience, please stop with the invalid claims. There's no shame in finding out we've been wrong about something; we learn and move on, but to cling to an invalid argument when we've been shown to be in error should be embarrassing.


1) https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/rottweiler/ under the "Health" subheading.

2) Aggression toward Familiar People, Strangers, and Conspecifics in Gonadectomized and Intact Dogs https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fvets.2018.00018/full
 
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ItsAHardKnotLife said:
I just say that I’m keeping him intact so he matures properly and I may breed him in the future. Beyond that, it’s quite frankly none of their damn business. The whole “bob barker, spay and neuter your dog” movement is annoying and misguided. Everybody is so quick to push for sterilization, yet they have no idea what it truly does to the animal. They just parrot back the same old “He’ll bE aGgReSsIvE/uNwAnTeD pUpPiEs” bullshit. Just remember that you’re paying the vet for their services. If they have an issue, stare down their nose at you, or keep trying to sell an unnecessary surgery; take your business elsewhere.
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new to the site, and this is my first post (be gentle I am fragile :p).

Ok, all seriousness aside, and as this thread keeps getting necro'ed, I just wanted to say thank you for saying this. When I had Daisy who was a Chihuahua Beagle, and I swear had a personality way more human than Canine (and long before I found out Zoophilla was a thing) they vet would constantly demand I spay her and yes gave the full package excuse of spaying while the vet saw dollar signs in their eyes. It really sticks in my craw that people go into the field of wanting to help animals, but then end up being in it for the money and nothing else. Annnnd this is where I stop before I do multiple pages of rants right there.

In the mean time, like I said I am nere here so like uh Hi!
 
Nature argument.

Vets are there for life and death situations. Let nature run its course unless a life is at stake.
 
Same here, I've never had any issues with my vet. The most it was ever talked about was, "by the way, we offer this service... anyway his health is great so come back next year for his annual checkup."
I've generally found that unless you are going out of your way to make a thing of it, most vets are pretty relaxed about it
 
This is gonna sound real stupid, but I've seen a few stories here of vets catching a zoophile by finding the owner's semen leaking from the dog's vagina. That being said, is there some sort of safe and gentle doggy "bidet" or something that can be used as one that can gently flush any remaining semen out, without posing any sort of risk of internal damage or infection?
 
SultryHellhound said:
This is gonna sound real stupid, but I've seen a few stories here of vets catching a zoophile by finding the owner's semen leaking from the dog's vagina. That being said, is there some sort of safe and gentle doggy "bidet" or something that can be used as one that can gently flush any remaining semen out, without posing any sort of risk of internal damage or infection?
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It would be best to refrain from sexual activity for a day or two beforehand. One could douche her, but it is important to understand that a bitch's PH is not the same as a woman's, so douches designed for humans should not be used on a bitch. I think the risk of some of the douche leaking out would draw as much attention and concern as anything else. A little discharge here and there on a bitch is not a big concern, but again, a day or two of abstinence would be my recommendation.
 
egoldstein said:
It would be best to refrain from sexual activity for a day or two beforehand. One could douche her, but it is important to understand that a bitch's PH is not the same as a woman's, so douches designed for humans should not be used on a bitch. I think the risk of some of the douche leaking out would draw as much attention and concern as anything else. A little discharge here and there on a bitch is not a big concern, but again, a day or two of abstinence would be my recommendation.
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Right, that's why I was thinking of a water-based solution as not to mess with the pH. What if it's in an urgent-but-not-quite-emergency situation?
 
SultryHellhound said:
Right, that's why I was thinking of a water-based solution as not to mess with the pH. What if it's in an urgent-but-not-quite-emergency situation?
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I'm not a vet, so take this for what it's worth. which is exactly what you paid for it, nothing... Water has a ph value as well. An emergency rinse probably would not cause any harm, but you'd risk her leaking water which might draw more attention than if you did nothing at all.

Perhaps someone here with more relevant professional experience will comment.
 
Vaginal tissue is not -that- sensitive in terms of bacteria, else even the copulation between dogs would cause infections repetitively.
Even a well-washed male human phallus has still bacteria left on it, it's almost impossible to "sterilize" it wholly for longer than a few minutes.

And sperm doesn't really stay inside the vulva for long. If you take her for a walk 30-60 minutes after copulation, most of it will be flushed out through movements and peeing.

The remains will get separated. The fluid will partly get absorbed through the tissue (like a dry mouth absorbs the water if the body is low on it), the sperm will try to enter the uterus, most human sperm will die after a few hours to a day due to the not human-like pH balance and afterwards get disassembled / disposed of internally.

Not to talk about internal movements which actually shove remains more or less outside by muscle and tissue movements. Else if a female dog (or human) sits, swims or goes through a liquid or just dirty environment, it would enter the mucous membranes which is usually prevented. Self-explaining: the risks to catch infections for a wolf / dog / any canid would else be really high in natural environments outside. As they don't keep "modern human"-hygiene standards.

If you're really cautious about any remains, you can as well buy a small pack on female tampons without scents, gels or comparable (human female products, not for dogs) and leave it in the vulva for 15 - 20 minutes while playing (not sexually - just for body movement) with her in your room (don't go outside with a string dangling from your female dog's vagina).

Any remains would then be absorbed without any noticeable change in pH value of the mucous membrane. The absorbed fluids will get adjusted through the tissue itself (like a inner cheek / mouth side, it's the same tissue concept in a vulva, with small differences). As such after just 2-4 hours all resembles the status before you both had sex.

No vet, just ex-vet studying. As such you shouldn't just believe me. But I specifically didn't write about any risky cleaning procedures. It's merely an overview of what is expected to happen after which time.
 
SultryHellhound said:
This is gonna sound real stupid, but I've seen a few stories here of vets catching a zoophile by finding the owner's semen leaking from the dog's vagina. That being said, is there some sort of safe and gentle doggy "bidet" or something that can be used as one that can gently flush any remaining semen out, without posing any sort of risk of internal damage or infection?
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Nah, just abstain for at least 3 days before an appointment.
 
There is no law saying you have to fix your animal.

No matter what thing you say they are gonna strongly recommend it; all you gotta say is no. They don't refuse service for unfixed animals. Some things do, like boarding or like town dog events but that's a different story.
 
After working with a vet for multiple years, I never once heard a single person there give guff on not spaying or neutering your pet unless there were medical concerns. I do say, however, from working in the field, that the choice is difficult due to the risks on both ends. I've seen several bitches die due to pyometra, and multiple males become incontinent from massive prostate tumors helped along by their testosterone. Aaaaand Ive seen dogs of both sexes go from fit with gorgeous coats to sausage-shaped with never ending cottony shedding from the hormone change after being fixed. Behavioral changes of good and bad varieties on both ends, etc etc.... it's really up to the owner, when they look at the risks and benefits of both choices.
 
I haven’t had any problems with the vet either nor did they push me to get my girl spayed. They just said if you want to get her fixed to talk to the receptionist.
 
GalacticSorren said:
.. it's really up to the owner, when they look at the risks and benefits of both choices.
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Absolutely. It's exactly as you wrote - there can be side effects and high risks due to both ways of deciding. The permanent shedding and weight gaining is quite regularly from my experience with long-furred and Nordic breeds which show heavily linked fur change to heat cycle intervals.

Being cautious and using preventive screening measurements on female dogs by as example palpating the mammary glands for tumors and getting early-on ultrasonic or manual control of expected pyometra build-up inflammations can prevent some of the worse outcomes, but life's unfortunately not without risks..

Fortunately early detected pyometra or tumors don't have to be deadly anymore nowadays. (y)
 
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