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Zoo are you born or are you made?

Zoo are you born or are you made?

  • Born

    Votes: 109 59.6%

  • Made

    Votes: 74 40.4%
  • Total voters
    183
K_9River_rat said:
And another thing..

This being a mental illness just doesn't sit with me. I can accept all of my other odd quirks as something, but not this.

Illness would be something that screws up my life, but the only way this screws with my life is nothing natural because it only lies in the opinions of others.

It doesn't make it more difficult for me to work a job, hold a conversation, work an electronic equation or take care of myself.

Literally the ONLY threat to me involving this comes from others..
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Well if there's a genetic component, it's not a mental illness, unless they finally figured out how to rewrite a brain, it can't be corrected.

I feel like calling it a mental illness is a conclusion to something that needs a lot more research before being called done. So it's just plain unscientific.
 
tektop12 said:
Well if there's a genetic component, it's not a mental illness, unless they finally figured out how to rewrite a brain, it can't be corrected.

I feel like calling it a mental illness is a conclusion to something that needs a lot more research before being called done. So it's just plain unscientific.
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Exactly... so if this IS genetic, then that means it's 100% natural in origin. And it also means that a much higher percentage of the population could have it lying just under the surface..
 
K_9River_rat said:
Exactly... so if this IS genetic, then that means it's 100% natural in origin. And it also means that a much higher percentage of the population could have it lying just under the surface..
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I would say we all have it, or it prevalence would be lowering, instead of increasing.

This is why I wonder if one of the activation triggers responds to population density.
 
I just personally find it fascinating.

I have seen first hand, a male dog that had zero prior sexual experience with a human, and was not invited or coerced in any way, make a move on a female human. Not only was he not invited, he was turned down.

I've also had an experience with a female horse back when I was younger. It took me some years of learning animal behavior, but in retrospect, she kinda had crush on me although I didn't recognize it at the time.
 
K_9River_rat said:
I just personally find it fascinating.

I have seen first hand, a male dog that had zero prior sexual experience with a human, and was not invited or coerced in any way, make a move on a female human. Not only was he not invited, he was turned down.

I've also had an experience with a female horse back when I was younger. It took me some years of learning animal behavior, but in retrospect, she kinda had crush on me although I didn't recognize it at the time.
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My male initiated sexual contact with me. Which honestly didn't shock me, when he was still young and developing he'd already traumatized multiple large bears, so it only seemed natural that, at maturity he'd translate it if permitted.

My female was pushy very soon after rescue. But I refused it at first, due to the nature of her rescue, I wanted to work on her issues first. Once she finally began to display some level of rehabilitation I slowly allowed her to explore. I didn't outright stop or scold her, I'd hold her head and whisper "Not yet, first we get you better"
 
Another thing I find fascinating is the subconscious mind.

I hate to go off into tin foil hat land, but there's also a lot of evidence to suggest that there's more going on between animals and us and animal than meets the eye.

Maybe some of it is just as simple as a particular look in the eye.

But also I've heard of cases of a human female that had never been with a k9, being attracted to a particular k9 that had no prior experience with humans, that got the chance to offer herself, not even knowing how to flag and all of that, and it would seem the k9 needed nothing other than him and her sharing a gaze at each other. Of course pheromones could play a large part in that as well, but if the pheromones cross species, to me that's just another vote for mother nature..
 
K_9River_rat said:
Another thing I find fascinating is the subconscious mind.

I hate to go off into tin foil hat land, but there's also a lot of evidence to suggest that there's more going on between animals and us and animal than meets the eye.

Maybe some of it is just as simple as a particular look in the eye.

But also I've heard of cases of a human female that had never been with a k9, being attracted to a particular k9 that had no prior experience with humans, that got the chance to offer herself, not even knowing how to flag and all of that, and it would seem the k9 needed nothing other than him and her sharing a gaze at each other. Of course pheromones could play a large part in that as well, but if the pheromones cross species, to me that's just another vote for mother nature..
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Body language too.

But I'm a strong believer in empathetic connections. Notice how dogs know whether they like someone, or not, in seconds?
 
Not to totally geek out here. I know I've been over here typing like a fool, aaand that thought just totally flew out of my brain before I could grab it.. shit!

I'll probably remember it here in a minute... probably about the same time I hit the "post" button knowing my luck..
 
tektop12 said:
Body language too.

But I'm a strong believer in empathetic connections. Notice how dogs know whether they like someone, or not, in seconds?
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Ha!!! Body language!!! that was the thought!!!

Yea.. body language, genetics, and subconscious!!!

So when I started mimicking my first, I got this strange feeling that hey... I already know this..

Children are the same. They give looks before they develop speech.

A puppy taken from his mother early that didn't get a chance to learn from other dogs will exhibit the same body language...

Ie, body language must be in the genetic code as well..

Which makes sense.. while body language can be somewhat complex, it is so simple in comparison to speech, yet so effective since it can convey so much so quickly..

But the real point I was getting at is our body language programming and theirs is nearly identical..

There are so many things that I've seen them do, that was like wait a minute, that's the same as this... for example. took me a bit to realize this one..

My boy will touch the side of my face with his paw, like I do to him with my hand..

At first I thought it was just him randomly pawing me.. but no.. it's way to consistent..

And so many other little behaviors too.. I feel like I could write a book on the subject, but back to the similarities... I know we share similar body language with other species, bit I'd be curious how much ours has in common with k9s versus other species.

I'd be willing to bet it would fall in line with other things we already know..
 
K_9River_rat said:
Ha!!! Body language!!! that was the thought!!!

Yea.. body language, genetics, and subconscious!!!

So when I started mimicking my first, I got this strange feeling that hey... I already know this..

Children are the same. They give looks before they develop speech.

A puppy taken from his mother early that didn't get a chance to learn from other dogs will exhibit the same body language...

Ie, body language must be in the genetic code as well..

Which makes sense.. while body language can be somewhat complex, it is so simple in comparison to speech, yet so effective since it can convey so much so quickly..

But the real point I was getting at is our body language programming and theirs is nearly identical..

There are so many things that I've seen them do, that was like wait a minute, that's the same as this... for example. took me a bit to realize this one..

My boy will touch the side of my face with his paw, like I do to him with my hand..

At first I thought it was just him randomly pawing me.. but no.. it's way to consistent..

And so many other little behaviors too.. I feel like I could write a book on the subject, but back to the similarities... I know we share similar body language with other species, bit I'd be curious how much ours has in common with k9s versus other species.

I'd be willing to bet it would fall in line with other things we already know..
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Well here's what I can say about body language and development. I'm literally watching it happen.

My pups are 7 days old. They can't even see yet. But I expose them to contact extremely often (not sexual obviously) I have as much as the mother.

In 7 days I've watched them go from freak out from being grabbed to becoming aware of safety, to the point they will even blind crawl towards me and curl up, if I'm laying in the nest.

They are taken out of the nest often and I watched mama bear shift from anxiety to pure, unquestionable trust with the pups, which is the facilitator to the father having interaction as well.

So so far, relying on scent alone. They have already acclimated to human presence.

No way there isn't some genetic component that helps that along.
 
As much as I'd like to continue. Brain needs bed. I'll come back to this. Goodnight! ... Hopefully... They are loud...
 
tektop12 said:
Well here's what I can say about body language and development. I'm literally watching it happen.

My pups are 7 days old. They can't even see yet. But I expose them to contact extremely often (not sexual obviously) I have as much as the mother.

In 7 days I've watched them go from freak out from being grabbed to becoming aware of safety, to the point they will even blind crawl towards me and curl up, if I'm laying in the nest.

They are taken out of the nest often and I watched mama bear shift from anxiety to pure, unquestionable trust with the pups, which is the facilitator to the father having interaction as well.

So so far, relying on scent alone. They have already acclimated to human presence.

No way there isn't some genetic component that helps that along.
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It occurs to me that we have totally hijacked this thread!!

My apologies to the OP, however I have found this to be a near constant subject rolling through my brain for nearly a decade now.

This is making me want to be home with the pack instead of 700 miles away working.

I can't wait to put fingers to keyboard in the privacy of my home instead of sitting here on my phone being ever vigilant about who might walk into my office.

Despite what others have said, I feel like there can be no other reasons except genetics.

All other theories just have too many holes in them.

Thinking of this in terms of evolution and genetics has it all fall into place rather neatly in my mind, with no loose ends that I can think of at this time.

I just don't see how it could be anything else, which does give me a lot of comfort because I've just never been able to accept that this wasn't something normal/natural.

Which means more research to do!!

Btw @tektop12 this has truly been a pleasure!

I'd definitely say we're of like minds!
 
My point here is we can clearly see how much change they've undergone.. 130,000 years is a LOT of time.

I'm thinking to just conclude that their sexual interests including humans could not possibly be as a result of evolution almost laughable at this point.

So much else changed in that same time span, why not that too?

And rabies being behind the modern taboo also sense.

They're saying that was about 4,000 years ago.

Easy to see why they would equate the two way back then, same way as some old religious texts banning the consumption of some foods that can make you sick if not cooked right (pork anyone?)
 
K_9River_rat said:
Just found this, oh and goodnight @tektop12

This also could explain a lot about what we've talked about, and also the origin of the taboo.

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The long connection between just us and dogs is documented all over.

It does make a lot of sense as to the origin, being seen as "unclean" would certainly add to it, at the very least.
 
tektop12 said:
The long connection between just us and dogs is documented all over.

It does make a lot of sense as to the origin, being seen as "unclean" would certainly add to it, at the very least.
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Yea, I knew there had to be something that caused a polar shift in attitudes. A rabies outbreak 4000 years ago would go a long ways towards explaining that shift.

Historically, there's lots of examples of where dots were just connected wrong as I mentioned about pork.

There's lots of evidence to suggest that many things the jews don't eat because of biblical writings could just as easily, and more likely in some scholars opinions can be tied to certain foods causing sickness.

Now I'm curious to find more examples of similar things that may have been common that then got frowned upon due to something similar, but it got written off as the gods being pissed.

@tektop12 , I'm guessing you didn't get much sleep.

Luckily my shift just ended, so time for me to grab a bite and give my own brain cells some rest.

Oh, and that second link showing k9s and humans going back 140,000 years was found in the course of looking around to get an idea of the number of canine generations per century, which I haven't found yet due to being at work. Just going by my initial find of 30,000 years would be a significant number of generations, but 140,000!!! just wow, because going by 4 generations per century for humans is roughly 5,600 generations. Off the top of my head, I'd guess for canines, that number could be 16,800 generations in the same time span. Maybe higher. I just guessed at 12 generations per century for them to get that number.
 
K_9River_rat said:
I'm thinking to just conclude that their sexual interests including humans could not possibly be as a result of evolution almost laughable at this point.
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Yeah, you guys posted two pages worth of stuff in a night, so I'm going to need to focus on something small to respond. I choose this! Many animals have shown that they can have sexual interest with humans, and with other species. Why do dogs need to be special in that their interest is the result of evolution? I think it's far more likely that the potential for inter-species sex was always there as a side effect of sex-drive needing to be powerful to ensure the breeding and survival of any given species.
 
amorousdog5 said:
Yeah, you guys posted two pages worth of stuff in a night, so I'm going to need to focus on something small to respond. I choose this! Many animals have shown that they can have sexual interest with humans, and with other species. Why do dogs need to be special in that their interest is the result of evolution? I think it's far more likely that the potential for inter-species sex was always there as a side effect of sex-drive needing to be powerful to ensure the breeding and survival of any given species.
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Oh were not specifically saying just dogs, some posts refer to them, purely for illustration purposes, but in this reference, we talk about any breed that has displayed a natural proclivity toward interspecies mating involving humans, or this does also apply to other breeds, just so many dog interactions, it's easier to find examples and links.

Interspecies sex has occured in nature as well. Which would suggest your point, of it possibly always being there, could be nail on the head!
 
That's a lot to respond to but most of it goes right over my head, genetics and all that. I get very confused about what zoo even means. I do think I see the difference between zoophilia and bestiality, but if zoo means attracted romantically, desiring relationships, mating, life partnership and stuff, I'm not anything. I have a lot of sex but never feel an emotional connection with anybody of any species like so many people talk about. I'm just an animal like all the rest. We all have sex. And stuff like species and gender just don't cross my mind when someone wants to fuck me.

Inter-species sex is wrong according to society and against its rules, but so were a lot of other things once upon a time. In my small mind the the desire to have a dog inside me isn't a mental disorder or genetic malfunction or even a perversion. It's a proclivity, a taste, a bent as natural as loving chocolate, being an introvert or feeling feminine. Sex is how a species survives but procreation is not the only or even most common reason humans have sex. A guy isn't trying to make a baby when he's reaming my rectum or cumming down my throat, when he covers his cock in latex and pumps it into my vagina. And I don't see how the impossibility of a dog inseminating me makes sex with him any more unnatural or immoral than the impossibility of a dude inseminating me when I'm sucking his dick. I mean, when I take my clothes off and drop in front of him a dog is instinctually driven to mount me but I doubt he's thinking Ooooh, gotta make a puppy!

I answered born because I get hot for members of many species, but I was terrified of sex in general for a long time and the idea of doing it with a dog had never crossed my mind until, well... I was weird and ugly and alone. He was my family, my best and only friend in the world, and on a night when no one remembered my birthday it happened.
 
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Brigitte said:
I agree. I think the reason most like to think that non-human mammal's only have simple minds is due to the fact they don't speak human language so they don't have great way to share abstract concepts. So their minds are probably much more complex then most give credit for
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The language barrier is huge. It's only in the last few decades we've really tried to learn more about that communication.

They don't understand some of our complex constructs, but that doesn't mean they don't have their own that we don't understand either.
 
Brigitte said:
What i hate more is that we are constantly compared to pedophiles. While both are very taboo one is with sexually mature mammals while the other exploits prepubescent children who physical can not have any true understanding of sex
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What people don't realize is that there are at least two clearly distinct paths to the animal world as it were.

We got here because of an attraction based on love or something similar.

The other side, because they're sick twisted fucks that I can about guarantee abuse more than animals. They have no love for animals or humans except themselves..
 
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