I don't know what you're talking about. Of course humans evolved from other animal species. And humans are animals -- which is why, when a human has sex with a dog, it is just one animal having sex with another animal.
In the US, we'll have to fight it in the courts
- Thread starter SigmaTheZeta
- Start date
I don't know what you're talking about. Of course humans evolved from other animal species. And humans are animals -- which is why, when a human has sex with a dog, it is just one animal having sex with another animal.
M
mares4me
Guest
The Supreme Court isn't going to listen to us. I don't blame them, tbh. The entire zoo community is backwards. I'm starting to think there is no hope for us.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@Zoo50
Right now, look around you on Zooville. Look at the sense of fear and hopelessness and despair that is weighing down our community and probably the entire zooey community.
We need something deeper to happen than just a change in the laws. Those are just a slap in the face, and any of us with any education know they are barely enforceable nonsense in the real world of law enforcement. What should be more alarming to you, I think, should be the state that our community has been in, lately. There is such anger and distrust in our community, and negative people that are promoting shame and hiding seem to have more of a voice than positive people that believe we ought to have pride and hope. The Apostles of Cowardice reigned supreme on Beast Forum, and they drove their bleating and lowing flocks and herds of craven cowards into hiding and secrecy. When these laws entered discussion, where the previous status was that most people said, "wait, I know a pet-fucker, and while I think it's gross, he's not really like that," the poor yokels, in their ignorance, got taken in by all of the anti-zooey rhetoric. We need someone who can bring a sense of positivity and hope and courage back into the zooey community itself.
I am going to be trying to focus my blog on positive messages to the zooey community and the pursuit of friendship. I am not going to focus chiefly on talking about strategy for changing the world. I am going to focus more on the pursuit of community and trust and also maybe discuss some of my sociological and historical views.
The hardest people to teach someone to love is themselves, but the wild thing is that, once you've taught them to love themselves, everyone they know follows suit and learns to also love them. That is the weird thing about pride. If you take pride in yourself, the world follows suit and eventually feels proud to know you.
Right now, look around you on Zooville. Look at the sense of fear and hopelessness and despair that is weighing down our community and probably the entire zooey community.
We need something deeper to happen than just a change in the laws. Those are just a slap in the face, and any of us with any education know they are barely enforceable nonsense in the real world of law enforcement. What should be more alarming to you, I think, should be the state that our community has been in, lately. There is such anger and distrust in our community, and negative people that are promoting shame and hiding seem to have more of a voice than positive people that believe we ought to have pride and hope. The Apostles of Cowardice reigned supreme on Beast Forum, and they drove their bleating and lowing flocks and herds of craven cowards into hiding and secrecy. When these laws entered discussion, where the previous status was that most people said, "wait, I know a pet-fucker, and while I think it's gross, he's not really like that," the poor yokels, in their ignorance, got taken in by all of the anti-zooey rhetoric. We need someone who can bring a sense of positivity and hope and courage back into the zooey community itself.
I am going to be trying to focus my blog on positive messages to the zooey community and the pursuit of friendship. I am not going to focus chiefly on talking about strategy for changing the world. I am going to focus more on the pursuit of community and trust and also maybe discuss some of my sociological and historical views.
The hardest people to teach someone to love is themselves, but the wild thing is that, once you've taught them to love themselves, everyone they know follows suit and learns to also love them. That is the weird thing about pride. If you take pride in yourself, the world follows suit and eventually feels proud to know you.
silkythighs
BANNED
For good reason, because there is no hope of ever attaining any zoo rights. There are no existing avenues or support for such a concept. So going on and on about something that will never happen, shows real obtuseness on your part.
UR20Z
Dumpster Diver
Once more with feeling, @SigmatoZeta : The only "zoo community" that has ever existed did so ONLY in the minds of "We gotta fight for zoo rights" loony-tunes like you. Out here in the real world, there is no such thing as a "zoo community", and never has been. This "community" you're so obsessed with is a product of your fevered imagination. Face that fact, and you've got a chance at coming acros as somethign more than a deranged, obsessive idiot. Until then, you'l continue to be discounted as the nutcase you're demonstrating yourself to be.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@Zoo50, please go ahead and start that blog. I am going to be doing one on this site. I think that this is a great place for a blog about zooness. Someone that is interested in what zoo is will look on this site first. This is where someone that is already curious is going to look. I think the best people to reach out to are people that have already opened their minds enough to look us up.
If you want me to proofread anything for you or give you some feedback first before you post it, then please run it by me. Run it by people on here like @ZTHorse or @dogluver101, too. Learn how to take mentorship and feedback. You can lean on us. We are behind you.
Maybe you could make the blog about testing your ability to reach out to and talk to non-zoos at non-zooey venues. Make it really honest. Admit to your failures, but also talk about cases where you have felt that you were successful. Use the blog to review very honestly how you feel about how you approached a situation, and give yourself some constructive feedback.
Say what you feel you did well, say what you feel you could have done better, and set a goal for your next engagement. Use that formula. It is similar to the Toastmasters International formula for evaluation. Every time you approach non-zoos and try to talk to them about your zooness, write a blog entry. Use that formula or a similar formula, and I guarantee that you would have yourself a good blog that people really want to read.
Or if you have any completely different ideas, then run them by your allies, on here.
If you want me to proofread anything for you or give you some feedback first before you post it, then please run it by me. Run it by people on here like @ZTHorse or @dogluver101, too. Learn how to take mentorship and feedback. You can lean on us. We are behind you.
Maybe you could make the blog about testing your ability to reach out to and talk to non-zoos at non-zooey venues. Make it really honest. Admit to your failures, but also talk about cases where you have felt that you were successful. Use the blog to review very honestly how you feel about how you approached a situation, and give yourself some constructive feedback.
Say what you feel you did well, say what you feel you could have done better, and set a goal for your next engagement. Use that formula. It is similar to the Toastmasters International formula for evaluation. Every time you approach non-zoos and try to talk to them about your zooness, write a blog entry. Use that formula or a similar formula, and I guarantee that you would have yourself a good blog that people really want to read.
Or if you have any completely different ideas, then run them by your allies, on here.
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hippophile
Guest
The whole "blog" idea has already been tried. Numerous times. They all failed to make a difference.
I do plan on making a blog on Zooville; I just haven't done it yet.
E
egoldstein
Guest
That others have tried and failed is not a valid reason to not attempt an undertaking. Imagine where we would be if people did such, we'd still be bashing rocks together as our most advanced tools, having seen others attempt otherwise and fail. IMO, one of the best advantages to writing about a topic is that it forces you to think and hopefully develop clearer thoughts on the subject.
I don't think they will change many minds, if any at all, but still I think the endeavor worth trying for one's own benefit if nothing else.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@egoldston, that is exactly why I keep a sketch diary. I don't know for sure if I will ever produce any artwork that I could hang in a gallery, and that's not really the reason why I do it. I do it because I know that it is good for me. I have produced something almost every single day since December 17, 2018. The first person that I am doing this for is for me.
I disagree with the view that outreach efforts have failed or not been worth doing.
As I keep saying, the Apostles of Cowardice drove a lot of zoos into the closet that previously were pretty open with their friends in otherwise sex-positive communities. They abused, trolled, shamed, and demonized anyone that was open about their sexuality. Their campaign to silence and shame as many zoos as they could, with the intention of keeping the zooey community from being noticed, was highly organized. That imbecility is what failed.
The Apostles of Cowardice declared, "we are not like the gays, so it is vitally imperative that we do precisely the opposite of what the gays did! Everybody hide!" and with banners flying and with drums beating, they marched us backwards, through the glorious ages of that Sixteenth Century when bigots burned the man who dared to bring enlightenment and intelligence to the human mind.
Meanwhile, here is what the gay people were doing:
We could always try doing what works instead of doing precisely the opposite of what works.
We should be treating zoos that successfully come out to their families and communities as heroes.
I disagree with the view that outreach efforts have failed or not been worth doing.
As I keep saying, the Apostles of Cowardice drove a lot of zoos into the closet that previously were pretty open with their friends in otherwise sex-positive communities. They abused, trolled, shamed, and demonized anyone that was open about their sexuality. Their campaign to silence and shame as many zoos as they could, with the intention of keeping the zooey community from being noticed, was highly organized. That imbecility is what failed.
The Apostles of Cowardice declared, "we are not like the gays, so it is vitally imperative that we do precisely the opposite of what the gays did! Everybody hide!" and with banners flying and with drums beating, they marched us backwards, through the glorious ages of that Sixteenth Century when bigots burned the man who dared to bring enlightenment and intelligence to the human mind.
Meanwhile, here is what the gay people were doing:
We could always try doing what works instead of doing precisely the opposite of what works.
We should be treating zoos that successfully come out to their families and communities as heroes.
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hippophile
Guest
And I thought I was crazy...
silkythighs
BANNED
Being gay has nothing to do be being a zoo. Once again, the only accepted sex in society is that between consenting adults. Being gay doesn't give them any more or less of a right to sexual expression as straight people. That is what gays have always been fighting for. To be able to openly express their sexuality, same as heterosexuals.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Balderdash. That scene from Inherit the Wind (1960) was one of finest monents of 20th Century cinema, and it made a memorable film out of what otherwise would have constituted a somewhat better than mediocre docudrama. The film's message is still relevant.
It is morally imperative that all decent zoos rise up against those that would silence us. As long as decent and enlightened human beings remain silent, ignorance will spread like cancer.
It is madness to ever assume that the voices of ignorance will vanish when those that are enlightened enough to know better fall silent. It is madness to assume we will ever have peace if we do not stand up and proclaim bravely that peace is our right.
This was relevant 59 years ago, and it is relevant today.
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arcticwolf69
Citizen of Zooville
i always thought it was mostly for legal reasons. Not being able to marry, tax reasons, and so forth
arcticwolf69
Citizen of Zooville
The biggest issue is that we have no defense. We can't simply argue we were in the right. There needs to be some sort of legaly recognized proof we are in the right. No amount of claims made by zigma that we are in the right matters to any judge. Everything must be proof. Claiming the dog enjoyed it or initiated it is not legal proof by us simply saying we are right and they are wrong. It must be proven. We must have legally recognized facts or else it is just hearsay.Whatever. I don't need a legal defense because I'm not being charged with anything, and couldn't care less about what you have to say here.
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hippophile
Guest
I have to agree with this. You can't call a dog to testify in a case, for example. Non-human animals have no legal standing. This fact alone makes it much more difficult for lawmakers to consider legalizing bestiality.
silkythighs
BANNED
Well yeah, that's a big part of expressing themselves just as heterosexuals. The right to marry the person of choice and to enjoy all the benefits of marriage.
silkythighs
BANNED
Yeah, Zoo's expect people and courts to simply accept their word that the animal wanted it or was asking for it. Animal lovers and animal rights groups would never accept that.
silkythighs
BANNED
Whatever. I don't need a legal defense because I'm not being charged with anything, and couldn't care less about what you have to say here.
Exactly which is why "comming out" and looking for "zoo rights" is stupid. You'd only get a criminal record, and never be allowed to have another animal again.
arcticwolf69
Citizen of Zooville
The MAIN issue is animals do not have rights. Until they do their is no legal grounds to stand on and fight. Fuck zoo rights. We need animals to have some basic rights.
H
hippophile
Guest
The PACT Act has helped animals in a very meaningful way.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@IHO as I keep reminding everybody, gay sex could still be prosecuted as a felony in my state when I became legally an adult. I broke the Hell out of that law, and for a couple of years, I was actually very open about it.
And then Lawrence v. Texas came and ruined my zany fun. I actually felt less excited over staying out after that. When there was a sense of danger associated with it, no matter how illusory, it was so much fun to tell people. These days, it just feels pedestrian.
You change the law by changing society in spite of the law, full stop.
And then Lawrence v. Texas came and ruined my zany fun. I actually felt less excited over staying out after that. When there was a sense of danger associated with it, no matter how illusory, it was so much fun to tell people. These days, it just feels pedestrian.
You change the law by changing society in spite of the law, full stop.
UR20Z
Dumpster Diver
The PACT act has done, and will do, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to help animals. It's another piece of the usual feel-good, do-nothing legislation that the imbeciles we elect to the legislature pump out constantly. It's a show piece. Nothing more, nothing less. Despite what it might say on the summary sheet about its purpose, the reality is that its TRUE purpose is to say "Yep, we're working for you here in Congress! Earning every penny we get from you, Joe Taxpayer, by busting our asses to make laws that look good on paper, but mean next to nothing in the real world. Want proof? Just look! We passed the PACT act! See what great things we've done?"
Reality: The PACT act will have ALMOST as much impact on the welfare of actual, living, eating, breathing, shitting animals as passing a law banning hurricanes would to prevent flooding, damage, and death in Florida and the other "hurricane target zones" of the southeast.
Reality: The PACT act will have ALMOST as much impact on the welfare of actual, living, eating, breathing, shitting animals as passing a law banning hurricanes would to prevent flooding, damage, and death in Florida and the other "hurricane target zones" of the southeast.
There's no proof that what the anti-zoos are saying (that sex with animals is "abuse") is true -- yet it was accepted by at least one court. I think the issue isn't so much "proof", it is reasoning / arguments.
Animals do have rights -- they just aren't legally recognized by society. The same is true of zoo rights -- zoos do have a right to have sex with animals, but that right is not currently (legally) recognized.
caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
You, sir, are full of shit like a Xmas turkey. Have you never heard the phrase "innocent until proven guilty"? The only party needing proof is the one doing the accusing.
silkythighs
BANNED
silkythighs
BANNED
Once again, you missed the point. Naturally if someone "accuses" you of some crime, evidence is needed that proves the allegation. But if you admit to, or it's proven that you commented bestiality. Claiming the animal wanted it, is not a defense.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
That is how a lot of gay people dealt with being gay in the late 1960's through the 1990's. Gay sex might have still been a misdemeanor or even a felony where they lived, but the gay pride movement had grown, in certain urban centers, in spite of that. People just kept on coming out in droves, and eventually, the illusion that these laws were punishing people that were even slightly dangerous began to crumble into dust.
The truth is that some LGBT were still being targeted or drawn into police entrapment schemes right up until the late 1990's. Coming out was not always risk-free, and it could get perilous. Even today, a lot of gay kids that come out to their families end up being homeless for a little while, and some of those have to rely on other members of the community, including allies, to get up on their feet.
They do it because the culture of secrecy where the whole local community is closeted is toxic, and too many people staying in the closet leads to everybody being in serious danger. It constitutes a sort of tragedy of the commons, staying in the closet:
Tragedy of the commons | Overpopulation, Resource Depletion & Environmental Impact | Britannica
Tragedy of the commons, concept highlighting the conflict between individual and collective rationality. The idea of the tragedy of the commons was made popular by the American ecologist Garrett Hardin, who used the analogy of ranchers grazing their animals on a common field. When the field is not
www.britannica.com
Staying in the closet has basically the same effect. Ultimately, maybe a handful of closeted zoos will successfully keep their secret, live really accomplished lives, become wealthy and powerful, and never once have anyone suspect them until they have gotten safely into their graves after having lived until a ripe, old age. However, as long as relatively decent zoos are staying completely in hiding, the only time when people hear about zoos will be when some sensational story happens to make the papers, leading to the public getting fed a badly distorted image, which could transform into occasional witch-hunts or moral crusades in which some zoos and their animals actually get killed in spite of never really doing anything wrong or weird.
You take on a personal risk by coming out, but when a whole lot of other zoos around you are also coming out with you and taking that risk with you, all of you together are ultimately a lot more secure.
The trick is getting enough members of the community to think collectively in order to make the collective benefit start to outweigh personal risk. That is really a tricky thing to do, and it takes a hell of a lot of work to build up the community.
Creating a fun and quirky podcast like Zooier Than Thou creates a sense of shared identity, and I think that more stuff like that just might eventually help kindle a sense of unity among the zooey community.
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UR20Z
Dumpster Diver
And again you start squawking about your imaginary community.
And again I tell you that out here in the real world - you know, that place where most of us actually exist - there is no such thing as a zoo community, and no amount of you claiming there is will change that basic fact.
Get over ourself, milly - You aren't any kind of knight in shining armor, and the folks you think you're coming to rescue aren't interested in being rescued by you, so climb down off your high horse, put it in the pasture so it can get a bite to eat and have a nice roll, and move on to something constructive.
And again I tell you that out here in the real world - you know, that place where most of us actually exist - there is no such thing as a zoo community, and no amount of you claiming there is will change that basic fact.
Get over ourself, milly - You aren't any kind of knight in shining armor, and the folks you think you're coming to rescue aren't interested in being rescued by you, so climb down off your high horse, put it in the pasture so it can get a bite to eat and have a nice roll, and move on to something constructive.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Anyhow, when Lambda Legal was launched, the LGBT community actually had a lot of support, already, among academics and the upper and middle class. It was a long turf-war to get the truth up to the highest echelons of New York City's society.
It takes a solid generation at minimum to build up that kind of solidarity among allies.
The LGBT community was actually in a worse situation than us, during the 1930's through the late 1970's. Society agreed pretty much unanimously on what they thought caused homosexuality. It was believed that homosexuality could only be caused by existing homosexuals corrupting and perverting impressionable children, and people thought that it must therefore spread like a disease. Therefore, people considered stamping it out wherever possible to be absolutely imperative, which meant that there was a constant anti-homosexual witch-hunt that almost everybody agreed was absolutely necessary for the preservation of social health.
These types of PSAs were actually taken very seriously, and they were shown in schools. The sorts of beliefs represented in that video were ones that mainstream society, even very liberal people, agreed with, and it constituted something that they were deeply concerned about.
Anyhow, to pursue big ticket cases like Lawrence v. Texas, we would probably need a well funded organization like Lambda Legal, and let me repeat, Lambda Legal was staffed mostly by non-LGBT attorneys that were sympathetic. There might have been plenty of gay attorneys, but they were not about to put their careers in jeopardy by serving as part of Lambda Legal. It took straight people that had caring hearts to help get the organization off of the ground.
This is why I think that outreach efforts are so gosh darn blankitty blank important.
It takes a solid generation at minimum to build up that kind of solidarity among allies.
The LGBT community was actually in a worse situation than us, during the 1930's through the late 1970's. Society agreed pretty much unanimously on what they thought caused homosexuality. It was believed that homosexuality could only be caused by existing homosexuals corrupting and perverting impressionable children, and people thought that it must therefore spread like a disease. Therefore, people considered stamping it out wherever possible to be absolutely imperative, which meant that there was a constant anti-homosexual witch-hunt that almost everybody agreed was absolutely necessary for the preservation of social health.
These types of PSAs were actually taken very seriously, and they were shown in schools. The sorts of beliefs represented in that video were ones that mainstream society, even very liberal people, agreed with, and it constituted something that they were deeply concerned about.
Anyhow, to pursue big ticket cases like Lawrence v. Texas, we would probably need a well funded organization like Lambda Legal, and let me repeat, Lambda Legal was staffed mostly by non-LGBT attorneys that were sympathetic. There might have been plenty of gay attorneys, but they were not about to put their careers in jeopardy by serving as part of Lambda Legal. It took straight people that had caring hearts to help get the organization off of the ground.
This is why I think that outreach efforts are so gosh darn blankitty blank important.
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