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Warren v. Virginia: a court case that zoos lost

So we agree that the arguments they make don't make sense. The question is, how do zoos challenge their anti-zoo mentality? One of their arguments is, "lots of [anti-zoo] sources say that sex with animals is abuse / cruelty, therefore it is abuse." How can zoos challenge that argument?

I think this is part of an even bigger issue in that the majority of society have never learned how to think critically or how to use logic effectively. They are then less able to recognize when a proposition that appeals to them may not be rational.

It will take more to overcome an accepted idea, logical or not, than it did to accept the first time and you'll be fighting cognitive dissonance the whole time. I wish I had a solution, but I do not. I think things like Family Guy, with it's occasional bestiality references are beneficial. Sure it gets painted as something funny, but anytime people are made to think in a manner that is in conflict with it being inherently abusive they get a little more desensitized and it seems more normal.
 
Eat meat is related to sex with animals, in terms of morality -- it is morally inconsistent to kill and eat animals (something that is morally wrong), yet also condemn far-less-harmful sex with animals. Its about how people treat animals overall. If people were to do things in a morally good way (in the best interest of animals), then slaughtering animals would be outlawed, and sex with animals would be legal.
There is nothing morally wrong with killing animals to eat or to provide food for others. You are one of the few that take that view. Most of the rest of the world do not, and nowhere in the world is it illegal to kill an animal for food. It's the food chain, animals kill other animals so the can eat - right up to humans that also kill animals to eat. However I do think it would be morally wrong to kill an animal to have it stuffed and hang it on a wall. Sport hunting is wrong too, but if it is used for food and other resources then it has no moral complication.
 
If I were a judge, I would've thrown out the case because there are more important matters to discuss. Why even waste time arguing over something that has no basis in reality? Why do you think you have a right to have sex with animals?

Zoophilia won't be legalized, guys. It's time to move on.
 
Unfortunately most humans do NOT have your superior morality issues.
It is not cause we are superior to animals or speciesist that we eat meat that comes from animals. WE LIKE IT. we do not care if we do not need to eat meat to survive, we LIKE EATING MEAT.
Like it or not, that's the main fact.
Very few people will stop eating meat simply because you say it is morally wrong.
Most of us do not have moral issues with eating meat.
 
There is nothing morally wrong with killing animals to eat or to provide food for others. You are one of the few that take that view. Most of the rest of the world do not, and nowhere in the world is it illegal to kill an animal for food. It's the food chain, animals kill other animals so the can eat - right up to humans that also kill animals to eat. However I do think it would be morally wrong to kill an animal to have it stuffed and hang it on a wall. Sport hunting is wrong too, but if it is used for food and other resources then it has no moral complication.

Not true. It is morally wrong to kill other living beings (like cows), because those beings have a right to live (and they have a desire to live). Ending their lives just for temporary human gains is not morally justifiable.

While one can argue that humans are part of the food chain, one can also argue that humans know better -- they know non-human animals are capable of pain, suffering, emotions, etc -- meaning humans shouldn't kill other animals. Unlike some animals, humans do not have to kill animals to survive.

The argument that the majority thinks something isn't a good argument either. The majority of society thinks sex with animals is wrong, but that doesn't mean they're correct.

Unfortunately most humans do NOT have your superior morality issues.
It is not cause we are superior to animals or speciesist that we eat meat that comes from animals. WE LIKE IT. we do not care if we do not need to eat meat to survive, we LIKE EATING MEAT.
Like it or not, that's the main fact.
Very few people will stop eating meat simply because you say it is morally wrong.
Most of us do not have moral issues with eating meat.

You ought to think about why you don't have empathy for other living beings, and why you think it's OK to treat them as disposable objects, while others (like dogs and humans) are given a different status. ALL animals should be treated the same (morally).

And eating meat is speciesist (even if one doesn't realize it) because if one eats non-human animals, he/she is treating them differently than they would treat humans.

Also, saying "I like doing something" isn't really a good argument.

If I were a judge, I would've thrown out the case because there are more important matters to discuss. Why even waste time arguing over something that has no basis in reality? Why do you think you have a right to have sex with animals?

Zoophilia won't be legalized, guys. It's time to move on.

This is a very defeatist attitude. Why are there so many defeatists / pessimists on this forum? People do have a right to have sex with animals (albeit not recognized by current laws) because it is a human right, just as gay sex is a human right (e.g. the right to pursue happiness in a non-harmful manner). In the case of zoo sex, one could also argue that it's a non-human animal's right as well.
 
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We wont ever be accepted. We are outcasts gotta learn to deal with it honestly ? in the eyes of non zoos. We are probably one the same level as pedophiles
We are on the same level as pedophiles. I’ve been noticing a growing trend of pedo acceptance/normalization online recently. I think pedos and their supporters are absolutely insane. But they prob think the same of us.

Either way, we’re all fucked up in society’s eyes. Nothing will be changing anytime soon.
 
In Germany we are not on the same level as pedophiles. Anti-zoo activists may see it that way and wrongfully claim a connection, and they are loud, but they are not society.
 
There is nothing morally wrong with killing animals to eat or to provide food for others. You are one of the few that take that view. Most of the rest of the world do not, and nowhere in the world is it illegal to kill an animal for food.

I feel a bit bad about addressing the meat-eating/vegetarian question in a thread that is not about it, but for the sake of the truth ... Killing some animals for food is prohibited in some countries, and for moral reasons. See for example Wikipedia's article on dog meat. In the US, it varies from state to state, some states specifically outlaw dog meat. In India some states prohibit slaughtering cows on the other hand (Wikipedia again) and a bunch of Moslem countries prohibit pork (Wikipedia). I am sure you are aware that many endangered species are protected worldwide, but the motivation is a different one there.
 
I will say that I have always been accepted in the non-zooey online community until some issues that I have lately, when some already problematic individuals at one of my old hangouts decided that they would go on an anti-zoo crusade. It got pretty vicious, and I had to fight dirty. They learned you don't mess with the Sig.

I think that one of our biggest problems is that many of us won't try talking openly about our zooiness at non-zooey venues. I know that almost all of us have non-zoo hangouts where we prefer to be online. I think that we ought to get good at identifying what kinds of non-zoo hangouts where it's safest to talk openly about our zooiness. My thinking is that, if I can't be an out zoo there, then I don't need to be there.
 
I think that one of our biggest problems is that many of us won't try talking openly about our zooiness at non-zooey venues. I know that almost all of us have non-zoo hangouts where we prefer to be online. I think that we ought to get good at identifying what kinds of non-zoo hangouts where it's safest to talk openly about our zooiness. My thinking is that, if I can't be an out zoo there, then I don't need to be there.
I understand your thinking but don't you think that your openness on those site is going to meet with a strong opposition? My thinking is that trying to be open about it on sites where zoo is clearly not accepted is going to be like tossing gasoline on yourself and lighting a match.
 
I understand your thinking but don't you think that your openness on those site is going to meet with a strong opposition? My thinking is that trying to be open about it on sites where zoo is clearly not accepted is going to be like tossing gasoline on yourself and lighting a match.
At my old hangouts, I didn't have any real problems until recently, and right now, I feel relatively secure. I have talked openly to the people that make decisions about policy enforcement, and they agree that, regardless of what I do in private, I am protected by the same agreement that others are and also bound by the same agreement. I follow the rules there to a T without exception. I don't even swear or make all that much innuendo.

One of the greatest works of genius by me, in that scenario, is that I got the haters screaming anti-zoo slurs and obscenities in a conversation where I myself had not even once mentioned zooness. It was very simple. One of the haters started with the bullying and talking crap about zoos, and I said,

"I disagree with you, and I find those accusations to be hurtful."
"I have done no such thing."
"I reject those statements, and I refuse to put the point up for discussion."
"I reject those statements."
"I regard those statements as hurtful, and I reject them."
"I will not engage in this argument. I am feeling harassed."
"No, you expect me to behave as if I am on trial and as if you are judge, jury, and executioner, so you can spout some highly flawed syllogisms that would never pass muster in a professionally moderated debate, frankly due to a paucity of mutually accepted premises, and then assert that I deserve to be treated this way. What is actually happening is that you are harassing me in public."
"No, you are talking about this as if both of us had previously agreed on deontological premises for the discussion, and I have said several times that I reject deontological reasoning and adhere mostly to a rule utilitarian approach. You are not going to change that fact."
"That's it. I am going to stop feeding your taunts, and I am going to change the subject."
"Conveniently enough, I am in the middle of making a roux for a Cajun-style soup that I am making tonight!" (to the room)​
"Wow! I didn't know that you lived in New Orleans! If I had known, I would have dropped in and paid you a visit!" (to someone else)​
"Oh, no: I don't really have any Cajun or Creole in me, but I do have some French." (to same someone else)​

I wasn't talking about animal sex. They were. They just wanted to establish the idea that they had a right to put me on trial over it, and I wasn't going to play. Eventually, I got one of the trolls banned, and the rest of them sat down and shut up. Without their utterly fake moral crusade, they are still the same tiresome destructive moochers that they have always been.

The way these scum operate is that they troll you and try to bring out the nasty in you, and when you refuse to rise to it, they eventually become so over-the-top from their own frustration that they will self-destruct. They will self-destruct almost every time. Even if you only get this source of satisfaction once, there is nothing in this world that is more satisfying than stepping out of the way of Sir Lancelot and letting him charge his way over a cliff.

You can win at non-zooey venues if you remember always to follow the AUP to a T and keep open communications with the people that are responsible for enforcing it. Be a model citizen and a pillar of the community. People will eventually notice that the local zoo is the cat's pajamas. You do not really have to keep it a secret around non-zoos.
 
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I think that one of our biggest problems is that many of us won't try talking openly about our zooiness at non-zooey venues. I know that almost all of us have non-zoo hangouts where we prefer to be online. I think that we ought to get good at identifying what kinds of non-zoo hangouts where it's safest to talk openly about our zooiness. My thinking is that, if I can't be an out zoo there, then I don't need to be there.
Why does anyone need to share their private sex lives with non zoos. I have never been able to understand that way of thinkng. My thinking is that i do not need or wish to be out zoo anywhere except a zoo place. People in other places have no need to know what my sexual attractions are.
 
Why should it matter to me if my non-zooey online friends do know? If they can't deal with it, then I don't need them. I can barely keep up with my existing social commitments while working full-time, too. Why should I get concerned if I am not popular among self-righteous bozos?
 
Why does anyone need to share their private sex lives with non zoos. I have never been able to understand that way of thinkng. My thinking is that i do not need or wish to be out zoo anywhere except a zoo place. People in other places have no need to know what my sexual attractions are.

This, precisely.

Y'see, @SigmatoZeta , there's a place for things, and when it comes to being zoo, that place is among other zoos, if at all.

As you've pointed out before, you're gay. Goody for you. But if you're going to try to tell the membership of a "straight" hangout how great it is to be gay, wouldn't you expect some blowback? Possibly serious, maybe even wind-up-in-the-hospital-in-a-body-cast level blowback? No, on second thought, you wouldn't give a fuck. Sorry, I forgot that all you care about is being able to proclaim that you're here, you're queer, and get over it. Aside from the whole AIDS mess, that was the one thing that stuck in my craw about gays - Great - you're gay. Who gives a fuck? I'm not, and frankly, I don't give a damn if you fuck guys, girls, tree-limbs, knotholes, or goats. So long as you're not hitting on me after I've given you the brush-off, I just plain don't care. I'll cheerfully buy you a beer, or let you buy me one, and maybe we'll even go out fishing or something one day. But I don't want to hear about your sex life. And that's the point where a reasonable person shuts his face and keeps his sex life to himself. Fail to shut up about it, and you should expect exactly one thing: A beatdown. One that you richly deserve, and are completely responsible for bringing on yourself. Not because you're gay, but because you're too fucking stupid to shut up about being gay in a situation where it isn't an appropriate topic for conversation.

Being gay doesn't give you license to spout off about it. Especially when you know (or should, if you have more than one functioning brain cell) that the reception for such mouth-flapping is likely to be bad. You wanna tell all your queer pals at the local gay bar you're gay? GREAT! GO FOR IT! That's actually an appropriate venue! You wanna start running off at the mouth about how great it is to get boned up the ass by some guy you met on a construction site in a straight bar? You're asking - no, you're BEGGING - for an ass-whoopin', and you'd deserve everything you get - Not because you're gay. Not because there's anything particularly wrong with being gay. But because YOU'RE ENTIRELY OUT OF LINE TO EVEN BRING THE TOPIC UP! It's not the appropriate venue. Any more than deciding to put on an impromptu strip-tease act then beat off until you spooge across the cake at your great-aunt Tillie's 87th birthday party (unless, of course, you're the act that's been booked as entertainment, and that's what you're expected to do to earn your fee) would be!

Likewise, running off at the mouth about how bad you want to blow that basset hound you just saw as you walked into a "straight" place (whether real-world, or online) is equally out of line, and if you get your ass kicked for it, figuratively or literally, it's your cross to bear - you brought it on yourself, and should have known better. Nobody wants to know. Nobody cares. All you can possibly accomplish is further bad press for zoos in general.

That's not hatred, or discrimination, or anything else along those lines - That's social politeness. A concept that, apparently, has no meaning for you.
 
The gay community won because we supported and lifted up people like Harvey Milk. Even for gay men that were not feeling brave enough yet to come out, he was a hero, and they wished that they could be more like him. He was a hero of the gay community, and he helped do what few people have ever done: helped to transform a society.

It was not just Harvey Milk that made Harvey Milk, though. The culture of the entire gay community had become inclined to support people like Milk and to follow them.

I don't know if I could ever have as much fire in me as Milk, but I know that I would admire a zoo that was like him.
 
Zoos have never been anywhere near the same legal situation as gays were. There is a difference between fucking another human being of the same sex and fucking another species. That right there should be enough to tell you that we are not fighting a similar battle. We're in a totally different arena here.

It's okay, though. We don't need acceptance. I plan on taking my love of horses to the grave. But, you know, there is some beauty in that. Nobody has to know that I like horses in a romantic, almost deeply spiritual way. Only other people on this forum should know that. Being discreet is a wonderful thing. Some people just need to stop rocking the boat and let it be.

There are times when I wish zoophilia were legal, but I know it won't happen. It would be good for all of us, mentally speaking, if we could be ourselves, especially without fear of being locked up and treated like criminals. I'm not naive, though. At least not to the extent that I believe sex with animals will ever be decriminalized. I mean, we live in the US, a place where recreational marijuana is still illegal in most states, and people in general are unwilling to adopt to new ideas, such as boinking animals.

Why do you think there is any hope of changing the current laws, @SigmatoZeta?
 
Why does anyone need to share their private sex lives with non zoos. I have never been able to understand that way of thinkng. My thinking is that i do not need or wish to be out zoo anywhere except a zoo place. People in other places have no need to know what my sexual attractions are.
Actually I would say that nobody should need to know what your sex life is perion. The only one that should know is the person you share life with. All the rest don't need to know and shouldn't even try to find out.
 
Let's not also forget that people can live without animals as sex or food. I'm not suggesting they should, and certainly not that they will, but neither of those (non-human animals for sex or food) is a requirement. Only pointing this out because it read (I don't think intentionally) as though animals == food is a requirement.
Yeah pardner, you read what I said correctly...human existence, like all other existence is predicated on eating other entities. I won't go into new research on plant Communication, OR into the fact that Fungi are much more closely related to Fauna, than to flora...animals are EATERS , OR the EATEN, like all the rest of the creatures we KNOW.....outside of AREA 51 and Roswell. The two states are not mutually exclusive; in fact one relies on the other as Yin relies on Yang. Humans can chose alternate foods, but I submit that NO proof has ever been submitted that long term vegetarianism, to whatever extreme, will support a healthy human race....( it certainly will not support PREGNANCY, for most women). WHOLE FOODS is not just a grocery chain, my friend. You can moralize all day long....what makes you different from a Moralizer with a different POV?
When laws are made, none of this will ever be explicit, but it will be quite implicit, in any Judeo-Christian or Hammurabic based code of Law. The concept is so ingrained as to not need discussion. Find one System of Law where that is not the case, and perhaps we have a talking point....Til then Western Civ makes the rules, and Animals being food is how they make them.

The real question is...WHY do we bother about legality? Until the advent of the NET, no one even noticed, or they laughed it off. Keep it to yourself, and it isn't really a problem
 
Humans can chose alternate foods, but I submit that NO proof has ever been submitted that long term vegetarianism, to whatever extreme, will support a healthy human race....( it certainly will not support PREGNANCY, for most women).

Uhh, there are cultures which have been vegetarian for hundreds of years, some longer. Some of these cultures have quite high birthrates too, so it can definitely support pregnancy too. Not suggesting you should or should not eat non-huaman animals, that's up to you, just pointing out that it's not a requirement.

The real question is...WHY do we bother about legality? Until the advent of the NET, no one even noticed, or they laughed it off. Keep it to yourself, and it isn't really a problem

Before the net it was quite frequently a crime, one often having harsh sentences, somtimes life sentences and in many cases, death sentences attached for anyone found to have committed bestiality.
 
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Why do you think there is any hope of changing the current laws, @SigmatoZeta?
You asked me a fair question, and I will give you a fair answer.

The reason why is that human nature is still the same.

The means of getting along with them well are the same.

I think we are a few of generations out from overturning the anti-zoo laws, though. Did you see that crowd of people? It takes a generation to build that kind of momentum, and it takes another generation to translate it into binding results.

I plan on being around for another half a century, though.
 
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Zoos have never been anywhere near the same legal situation as gays were. There is a difference between fucking another human being of the same sex and fucking another species. That right there should be enough to tell you that we are not fighting a similar battle. We're in a totally different arena here.

Exactly, being gay has nothing to do be being a zoo. Being gay doesn't give them any more or less of a right to sexual expression as straight people. That is what gays have always been fighting for. To be able to openly express their sexuality, same as heterosexuals.
 
I'm not sure what the next level of appeal is, but I'm pretty sure the decision by this judge would be upheld anyway. What happens if Mr. Warren runs out of appeals? There's only so high you can go.

Unfortunately, we have to accept that zoophilia will remain illegal and, perhaps, find something else to fight for.

Think of all the injustices that are happening right now in the US. Pick one that you want to stop and then go from there.
 
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Exactly, being gay has nothing to do be being a zoo. Being gay doesn't give them any more or less of a right to sexual expression as straight people. That is what gays have always been fighting for. To be able to openly express their sexuality, same as heterosexuals.
<sarcasm> And Zoos, on the other hand, are neither citizens or even fully human. They have none of the rights that gays expect because the Almighty Silky has not seen fit to grant them. </sarcasm>
 
I'm not sure what the next level of appeal is, but I'm pretty sure the decision by this judge would be upheld anyway. What happens if Mr. Warren runs out of appeals? There's only so high you can go.

Unfortunately, we have to accept that zoophilia will remain illegal and, perhaps, find something else to fight for.

Think of all the injustices that are happening right now in the US. Pick one that you want to stop and then go from there.
Well said - I couldn't agree more
 
I think that those of you who say that one's sexual interest is a private matter and doesn't belong in public have a point, but at the same time you also miss why legality would be more important than for discussing one's private matters in public for fun.

Without some basic level of acceptance all of you are susceptible to blackmail. That does not only suck for you, it also means that you should not have any jobs where you have some public responsibility. You should not be politicians, policemen, judges. You should not handle any sensitive data. You should not work in electrical power stations. You shouldn't even be referees in sports. Corruptness is already built into you. You are a security risk to others.

I remember an incident where the conservative mayor of Hamburg, von Beust, was blackmailed by the then vice-mayor, who threatened to make von Beust's homosexuality public. What did von Beust do? He told him to fuck off and dismissed the ass from his position. He could do that because homosexual behavior isn't illegal anymore.

Even better, the public opinion on homosexuality had just changed enough that von Beust was re-elected after the coalition government broke apart following the incident. Von Beust did not want to make his sexuality public, but the fact that he could meant that he had the freedom to do the right thing in a totally different matter without endangering himself or those he loved too much.

The public opinion and the legal situation had not changed by itself. It had changed because other people had been fighting for it for years. Not long before the incident in Hamburg, a candidate for the mayorship in Berlin from a less conservative party was the first high-profile politician in Germany who had made his homosexual orientation public.

I don't think that we are anywhere near acceptance on a level, where you would not have to fear very negative reactions when you outed yourself as a zoo to the public.

But, legality at least, would be important. Without the right to be fucked by your dog, you will also lose other rights in practice, once you let your dog fuck you anyway. You will have to sell your rights, just to save your ass ... and dog.
 
Throwing in the towel is not an option.

The fact of the matter is that, if we stick our heads in the sand and do nothing, our situation could get worse. Our situation could become seriously dangerous.

While my experience as a gay man gives me a lot of hope for dealing well with humanity, it also acts as a warning for what happens when you fail to deal well with humanity. They can become violent. They can become people that will hunt you down and batter you to death. Our situation can actually get incredibly dangerous if we let it. A head-in-the-sand policy is what really puts you in the most danger. These animals are curious, which is one of the reasons why they can be so terrifyingly intelligent, and that curiosity can trigger their instinct to hunt. When that instinct has been triggered, then you will know what a doe feels like when surrounded by a pack of baying and yowling hunting dogs with their master on his way with a gun and a skinning knife. When that instinct has been triggered, then you will know fear.

Furtive bullshit, especially incompetent furtive bullshit, can get us killed. If you are going to keep anything about yourself from the public, then at least use a VPN and a secure peer-to-peer connection to talk about it. If you do not want the public to know about it, then encrypt, encrypt, and encrypt some more. There is a great system called Shadowsocks that constitutes the only system that has successfully been used to hack through the Great Firewall of China: consider learning how to use it and to use it well. If you want to say anything at all that you do not want the world to see, then learn how to actually cover your tracks.

A badly kept secret is a taunt. It only goads them.

If you are talking on here, then you should always speak as if you were addressing the public because everything on the searchable Internet is public. People that find that they feel curious about animal-sex people search for this site, whether they are anti-zooey in the first place or not, and when they find it, they will see everything that we are saying to each other. If they are feeling particularly curious, then they will prowl through every single thread and read every single conversation we have had, and they will see this conversation, right here. They will read it, they will judge us by it.

As dangerous as it is to be a public advocate, it is even more dangerous to not have public advocates, and the most dangerous thing of all is to behave secretively when nothing you do or say is really a secret.

Harvey Milk died, but because he put his neck on the line, many other LGBT lived. His campaign helped put an end to anti-LGBT violence in his region, and it was a successful campaign. The strategy of getting LGBT to come out en masse effectively resulted in calling off the hunt and saying that we were not going to play a role in that type of game anymore.

Cowardice is not an option.
 
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I think that those of you who say that one's sexual interest is a private matter and doesn't belong in public have a point, but at the same time you also miss why legality would be more important than for discussing one's private matters in public for fun.

Without some basic level of acceptance all of you are susceptible to blackmail. That does not only suck for you, it also means that you should not have any jobs where you have some public responsibility. You should not be politicians, policemen, judges. You should not handle any sensitive data. You should not work in electrical power stations. You shouldn't even be referees in sports. Corruptness is already built into you. You are a security risk to others.

I remember an incident where the conservative mayor of Hamburg, von Beust, was blackmailed by the then vice-mayor, who threatened to make von Beust's homosexuality public. What did von Beust do? He told him to fuck off and dismissed the ass from his position. He could do that because homosexual behavior isn't illegal anymore.

Even better, the public opinion on homosexuality had just changed enough that von Beust was re-elected after the coalition government broke apart following the incident. Von Beust did not want to make his sexuality public, but the fact that he could meant that he had the freedom to do the right thing in a totally different matter without endangering himself or those he loved too much.

The public opinion and the legal situation had not changed by itself. It had changed because other people had been fighting for it for years. Not long before the incident in Hamburg, a candidate for the mayorship in Berlin from a less conservative party was the first high-profile politician in Germany who had made his homosexual orientation public.

I don't think that we are anywhere near acceptance on a level, where you would not have to fear very negative reactions when you outed yourself as a zoo to the public.

But, legality at least, would be important. Without the right to be fucked by your dog, you will also lose other rights in practice, once you let your dog fuck you anyway. You will have to sell your rights, just to save your ass ... and dog.
Every zoo in the world should watch this film:


It is about exactly that, about blackmail, and also, pay close attention to how the closeted gay men in the film behave. Doesn't their behavior come across to you as familiar?

This belief that, as long as us zoos obediently stay in our filthy little pigeonhole, the world will forget about us and leave us be, is preposterous garbage. The more you act like a victim, the more you become a victim.

If you are not going to play a role in an organized counter-strike, then stay home. Run with the big dogs, or stay on the porch.
 
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