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The importance of organization

SigmaTheZeta

Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Sometimes, when I try to talk about this, the Apostles of Cowardice tend to leap to the false conclusion that, by organizing, I mean a few loose cannons walking around with bullhorns and waving signs and thereby attracting more attention to the underground zoo community and getting more people dragged out of their homes and their animals destroyed. In fact, they seem to have the perception that I am actually intent on this happening to them, and I have even had accusations thrown against me.

Actually, what I really propose is kind of the opposite of what they are prejudiced to assume. Organizing our community means so much more than public acts. It really includes taking a position of moral leadership for young zoophiles that are only 19 years old, so they can learn a healthier self-concept of what it means to be a zoo. The truth is that, anytime you hear about a horrifying story of someone getting busted for doing something that even you, as a zoo, find to be something horrifying and to be something that perhaps ought to be a crime, there was a time when that person was 19 years old, just starting to become curious, and still was a person that had not finished growing up. By the time that person gets busted for doing something truly sick, it's probably too late to do much to change that person's mindset, but when that person is young, it is still very possible to start taking a position of moral leadership with that person.

Also, organization is really important for reining in the kinds of loose cannon advocates that could get us into deeper trouble. There are methods of advocacy that always backfire, but with these oppressive anti-zoo laws, you are inevitably going to get a lot of people that feel hurt and angry. These people need someone to try to talk to them before they can comprehend the reality that we are looking at. What we are looking at, right now, is a painfully slow generational change at best, and quite frankly, the most realistic thing that most of us can expect, within our lifetimes, is to make a few inroads among sub-groupings of people that are especially equipped to understand us. You will not make people's hurt over being rejected disappear, but you can try to focus those emotions on behaviors that just might help make you safer, rather than endangering you.

Our community got into trouble with society because our attempted emergence was really a disorganized clusterfuck, and we ended up looking pretty bad. Rampant animal brothels and other malfeasance came to be what people believed we stood for, and we didn't really have a plan for our emergence. We didn't really do much at all that showed that we had really done anything at all to think through our decision-making.

Let's spend a couple of generations getting ourselves genuinely coordinated, and let's spend some time slowly making inroads. Let's counsel people that want to be advocates on what methods of advocacy actually do anything good and what methods of advocacy really backfire every time. Let's act smarter and be better.

Organizing our community and attempting to practice moral leadership will ultimately keep you and your animals safer.

I realize that many people have a hostile view of activists and see us as a threat, but real activism and mature activism is based on soundly advised strategy, coordination, and planning. Real activism is really the opposite of letting people act like impulsive children. Real activism measures time in half-centuries and acts in terms of carefully coordinated five-year plans. Real activism is disciplined and patient. Real activism does not expect overnight miracles.

Furthermore, stop saying we are "nothing like" other communities that have rehabilitated their reputations. Zoos are not special. We are not unique. We are not uniquely persecuted. We are not going through anything that legions of minorities in the past have not gone through. It really constitutes a sort of narcissism to believe that we are somehow in uniquely terrible or uniquely hopeless conditions. It is a sort of victim-narcissism. When you start down that path of victim-narcissism, you end up losing your sense of empathy, and that really leads you into more trouble.

The truth is that it's the same shit, different generation. The Christians were never really ill-meaning individuals, for example. Most of them were chiefly interested in operating charities that benefited the poor and supported families and children. They didn't really want to hurt anybody. They just saw that children that their parents had done everything in their power to raise well had been turning to the "vice" of homosexuality, and they truly believed that malicious men were out there "turning" them and spreading their mental disease. All they really wanted to do was protect kids from evil men.

The Christians' moral crusade was conducted in the same exact spirit that the HSUS is conducting their own moral crusade.

However, look how things have changed over a half a century. The Christians have really turned around. If anything, they are practicing leadership in assisting the emancipation of LGBT, and countries that have Christian majorities tend to be the most gay-friendly countries on the face of the Earth. Many Christian organizations have become advocates. They didn't mean to cause so much damage to people's lives.

Stop assuming that us zoos are unique. Society has rules for how to deal with them effectively, just like a dog has rules for how to deal with it effectively, just like a horse has rules for how to deal with it effectively. If you get bitten for breaking the rules, then don't you dare beat the dog. If you get kicked for breaking the rules, then don't you dare beat the horse. Learn your lesson, and do better.

If we are going to avoid things getting even worse, which they can, we must come together, as an organized people, and start figuring out what those rules are, based on a clear understanding of the historical record and on accepted sociology. We need to organize and try to get our best and our brightest to understand that they are truly needed more than ever.
 
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Perhaps you'd have a bit more success and/or acceptance if the first sentence of your rants didn't include an ad hominem attack on those you claim you're trying to "help"? Great way to win folks to your side - "Hey you stupid cowardly fuckhead! I'm here to help!" - My instant response? "With help like you're offering, I think I'd prefer to cut my own throat with a rusty spoon, thanks."

It'd also help if you'd stay on point instead of wandering all over the map so badly that by the time your sermon is over, nobody is left who has any idea where you went or what the point of going there was. This latest screed of yours is a prime example - What the hell was your point? Apparently, after deciding to start out by insulting anybody who doesn't agree with you, you started out headed somewhere, but by the time I fell asleep trying to wade through your side-excursions, you might just as well have been mashing keys at random for all the sense you were making.

Look, chum, you may have your heart in the right place. But here's reality: What you're proposing involves asking folks to accept that getting from Point A to Point B requires them to put their partners at risk. I, for one, will never do that. Me and mine are perfectly fine and safe here at Point A, and I can see no payoff worth the effort and/or risk involved in reaching Point B to bother even turning my head in that direction, never mind actually making any effort to get there. Call me coward. Call me any damned thing you like, but here's reality: Your campaign for "zoo rights" comes in dead last on my list of things to give a shit about - light years of distance and centuries of time behind keeping my critters safe. In fact, your crusade actively puts me and mine at risk. Which means that I'm going to fight you every step of the way.

When you're ready to put YOU AND YOURS on the line, I might reconsider. MIGHT. Until then, you're just another in a long, long line of enthusiastic but totally clueless kids screaming "We gotta get zoo rights" I've watched come and go over the last 30 years. All of whom thought they were the zoo version of Moses, Jesus and Martin Luther King Jr. all rolled into one uber-messiah package. Look where it got any of them... We (meaning zoos/bestialists collectively) are deeper underground today than we were 30 years ago. Why? Because you damned wannabe-saviors keep flapping your faces and bringing us back into the spotlight as wonderful targets for feel-good legislation that does nothing but demonize us further.

If you want to go on your crusade, that's your lookout - In the words of Monty Python, "Have fun storming the castle!" - Just don't be overly surprised when you find yourself dragged home on your shield.

That said, leave me and mine out of your fight! I'm not interested! I don't WANT your so-called "help". I don't NEED your so-called "help". The "oppressors" (Funny - I don't feel particularly oppressed... Oh, that's right - according to you, I'm too stupid and/or cowardly to realize how oppressed I am) you're so obsessed with fighting are of no consequence to me unless some damned idiot like yourself comes along and drags me - kicking and screaming in protest, I might add - into a fight I have no interest in being involved in, and throws me under their bus.
 
@UR20Z, it wasn't our idea to start some animal brothels or to take part in the sex-tourism industry or to allow our own community to disintegrate into basically moral anarchy. A lack of moral leadership, in our community, is what I see really happened to us.

For a while, people were more free to do as they pleased than they had ever been in history, and it was a test for whether or not it was a good idea to start lifting social restrictions on what people were or were not allowed to explore.

Some communities handled that time of liberation well, and their leaders took up positions of moral leadership and took a more rehabilitative role. The LGBT community really did a great job of going about it in a coordinated, well planned, and professional kind of spirit.

I think that us zoos did not enter that atmosphere with very much coordination, and we really brought it upon ourselves. Us turning a blind eye to obvious malfeasance and bad behavior ranks highly on my list of things, in my head, that really got us into a lot of trouble.

It's probably going to be another 30 years minimum before society goes through another time of moral liberation, and in that time, we have an opportunity to look back on our mistakes of the past and start getting ready to emerge with a greater sense of coordination and with a better moral compass.
 
@UR20Z

Let me quote your own words back to you.

"My money says that most of them are early-mid 20's, just discovered that it can be nice to put their pecker in the pooch, or vice-versa, and haven't realized just how much is at stake. The majority of them have no animals of their own, and thus, nothing to lose. Give 'em 10-15 years - if they make it that long without getting themselves busted and/or their critters - assuming they have any - taken away, they'll figure things out. Darwin in action, baby..."

You directed that at a 36 year old owner that is really counseling caution, moral leadership, and long-term planning.

Also, you are casting me as a scapegoat for your hardships, when the HSUS has actually been clear on what has prompted them to such dramatic actions. They are not reacting to the things that people do in the privacy of their own homes, and they are barely aware of a few isolated activists. What they are reacting to is extreme sexual abuse, animal prostitution, and lots of other things that most of us zoos would be even more horrified over than them.

However, when we had the ability to act more freely and more openly, we didn't do a damn thing about those things. We were complacent.

I might have not helped matters by insulting you, but you dishing out abuse on me for things that are not my fault is not helping you.

Admittedly, there are times when activism really does go wrong and is done in the wrong way, but stopping that still requires us to be coordinated and to be prepared to call loose cannon activists into check and give them some counseling on what methods actually stand a chance of not blowing up in our damn faces. It still requires coordination.

You can't even stop loose cannon activists without being organized.
 
@UR20Z

Let me quote your own words back to you.

"My money says that most of them are early-mid 20's, just discovered that it can be nice to put their pecker in the pooch, or vice-versa, and haven't realized just how much is at stake. The majority of them have no animals of their own, and thus, nothing to lose. Give 'em 10-15 years - if they make it that long without getting themselves busted and/or their critters - assuming they have any - taken away, they'll figure things out. Darwin in action, baby..."

You directed that at a 36 year old owner that is really counseling caution, moral leadership, and long-term planning.
Assuming you're the "36 year old owner" in question, you're one of a microscopically small few. You're also standing there thumping a drum, blowing a trumpet, waving an "I fuck animals! Come get me!" flag, and screaming to all and sundry "Come on boys! Over the top! We'll take this hill or die trying!" and doing it right next to ME AND MINE.

Yeah, that's counseling caution, moral leadership, and long-term planning, all right... With friends like you "helping", who needs an enemy?

I'm actually fine with that, though... Go for it. Have a good old time of it. But *GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME WHILE YOU'RE DOING IT!*

You and/or others like you, are, whether you mean to be or not, effectively standing on the battlements of my castle, where I fly a flag that reads "All's well here, no problems - peace!", and screaming "HEY! LOOK! HERE'S A TARGET! SHOOT HERE! SHOOT HERE!!"

I don't appreciate that - AT ALL!

Get your ass off of my walls, dude. I want to, and you damn-well better believe I will, sit this one out. The "payoff" from the crusade you seem to be so set on running isn't worth the cost of getting it. Bluntly, I don't give a drizzling shit what your goals are - I don't care if they're good, bad, or in between. I want only one thing: To be left alone, right here where I sit, with myself and my critters safe. I don't need or want you drawing attention to the fact that I even exist, never mind that I have sex with my animals. But it appears you've elected yourself savior, and seem bound and determined to "lead the poor downtrodden zoos to the promised land" whether or not they want to go.

Well, this one isn't interested in going anywhere, and if you're going to try to drag me, you better come with LOTS of bodies, all of them well-armed.
 
Here we go again with the debate over whether we should reveal ourselves, or hide.

I say it is too late to hide. We are known. How we are portrayed will depend on whether we cower while anti-zoos portray us as they wish, or whether we present ourselves honestly and fairly.

"All I know is they rape animals" is exactly the kind of stupid ignorance we need to defeat with facts and examples.

Maybe you have a good secret zoo relationship with your animals. That's good for you and there is no need to expose that. But I believe that ignorance is our enemy and information is our friend. That is because I believe that truth is on our side. "Let facts be presented to as candid world."
 
@UR20Z, Again, I deny that I or any other activist is to blame. You are throwing the blame at us, when even the HSUS is not even talking about us.

  1. They are talking about animal brothels, which self-respecting zoos hate.
  2. They are talking about violent animal rape and mutilation, which self-respecting zoos hate.
  3. They are talking about animal prostitution, which self-respecting zoos hate.
  4. They are talking about commercialized for-profit animal pornography, which self-respecting zoos hate.
I mean is there even any level on which we even disagree with the reasons why the HSUS is on this moral crusade?

But the HSUS does not even know that there are ethical-minded zoos out there because we were so complacent that those that engaged in those abominable behaviors ended up being a thousand times more visible than we were.

You have made up your mind that you should blame anybody and everybody that wants to make things better for your problems.

I blame the toxic complacency of our own community, and I think that eventually, more zoos are going to start to realize that this is really what ultimately went wrong.
 
There are more important things to consider, like the fact there are still homeless people and starving children in the US.

Zoo activism is at the bottom of my list of things to fight for.
 
There are more important things to consider, like the fact there are still homeless people and starving children in the US.

Zoo activism is at the bottom of my list of things to fight for.
I am hoping that it will stay on the list for you somewhere, though. In fact, the way I taught myself to draw was to deliberately restrict how much time I invested in it every day. I ended up getting much better results and getting less frustrated. I ended up having a much more positive attitude.

Maybe I will do the same thing with this.
 
@SigmatoZeta My point is that a broken populace will not accept our lifestyle no matter how hard you try. The more poverty and general hopelessness there is, the less likely anyone will be willing to sacrifice their time to further a cause, especially one that allows people to boink animals. A few zoos fighting for acceptance isn't going to do much in the long run.

You're asking for way too much from people, frankly. Maybe if society as a whole was in a better state of affairs, zoophilia would be more acceptable. As it stands, doesn't seem too likely. We should give it another hundred years or so. Hopefully by then, society will have matured enough to consider us zoos as good people and not just filthy animal fuckers.
 
@mares4me I am not trying to say that you are 100% wrong.

While generations do have to mature and evolve, it doesn't happen in a deterministic way.

It will take us zoos an entire generation of internal reforms to even appeal successfully to a small socially conscious subculture. A truly tremendous amount of labor, over an entire generation, would have to be invested in that. It is a lot of work.

That's going to mean drilling young zoos, starting a century ago or at least now, on a more positive self-concept and a beneficent ethos, even maybe a philosophy or spirituality, so that when these kids are teaching an art class or a sociology class a generation from now, there will be a subset of forward thinking socially conscious gifted young potheads that say, "This person is awesome!" and thereby create an inroad.

And even that inroad would have to take probably two fucking generations to come to political maturity and succeed at getting an appreciable number of people in one political party that are willing to risk their careers by supporting us.

And then another generation for them to break the partisan barrier and therefore succeed at attracting moderates and defectors.

It really does take as long as you say, but energy has to be invested in it, which has to start with us trying to be worth a crap as mentors to younger zoos.

Even change over a hundred years is such a terrifying amount of work, we could only succeed at even thinking about it clearly by breaking it down into smaller pieces and five-year long structured plans.

I am LGBT, and what we did was fucking hard. An incredible amount of energy went into it, and it still took more than half a century.

As bad as us zoos shit the bed, the task ahead of us is probably even larger.
 
@SigmatoZeta My point is that a broken populace will not accept our lifestyle no matter how hard you try. The more poverty and general hopelessness there is, the less likely anyone will be willing to sacrifice their time to further a cause, especially one that allows people to boink animals. A few zoos fighting for acceptance isn't going to do much in the long run.

You're asking for way too much from people, frankly. Maybe if society as a whole was in a better state of affairs, zoophilia would be more acceptable. As it stands, doesn't seem too likely. We should give it another hundred years or so. Hopefully by then, society will have matured enough to consider us zoos as good people and not just filthy animal fuckers.

What about the phrase, "it is never a wrong time to do what is right"?
 
I can put this to rest: Is zoo activism a good deed? Yes. But is legislation that legalizes zoophilia going to happen in our lifetime? No. It will not. Even if a few politicians agreed with us, it would not get done. Too many people are against us in ways that is equivalent to hatred towards minorities by white supremacists. Until some miracle comes out, our chances of getting our sexuality legalized locally, or nationally is next to never.
 
I will argue against the assertion that it will take generations or centuries for zoos to be understood.

I say that the best we can do is show ourselves as examples. Knowledge and experience will defeat fear and ignorance and suspicion.

Those who wish to live in a world of hate and fear will always do so regardless of any facts. Now, there you can cover centuries.
 
I will argue against the assertion that it will take generations or centuries for zoos to be understood.

I say that the best we can do is show ourselves as examples. Knowledge and experience will defeat fear and ignorance and suspicion.

Those who wish to live in a world of hate and fear will always do so regardless of any facts. Now, there you can cover centuries.
So jump right out there and start "showing yourself".

Just be damned sure that any animals who look to you are provided for before you do - It's fine and dandy for you to want to rally for rights. But keep in mind your animals, if any, are counting on you to come back home and make sure they're fed and taken care of.
 
Yay!
Sometimes, when I try to talk about this, the Apostles of Cowardice tend to leap to the false conclusion that, by organizing, I mean a few loose cannons walking around with bullhorns and waving signs and thereby attracting more attention to the underground zoo community and getting more people dragged out of their homes and their animals destroyed. In fact, they seem to have the perception that I am actually intent on this happening to them, and I have even had accusations thrown against me.

I am one of those people! Well... I am assuming I am considering the back and forth we have had on other forms. I am a bit honored actually.... *small bow*.

As I have said before, there is a time to stand and a time to sit. I think zoo's just need to sit. The bigger we get the more dangerous it get.

*WARNING: I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE LIKE THESE PEOPLE IN ANY WAY!*
Our morals are different than others. That is a fact. What makes our morals any less or any more than other peoples morals? Do you not think other groups have the same strong feelings for what they beleive, and think they should organize for what they believe in? Look at Nazi's, White Supremacists, and pedophiles. Morally we can all agree they are wrong. To them though, they are right. They want to be able to walk in the streets without being persecuted. They want to love who they want to love. They want to hate who they want to hate.

I get that the fundamentals of the morals between all groups are different, but having morals that others disagree (or agree with) are universally the same.

We should be happy to have sites like this. That we can talk and share ideas and feelings. We can also know that what we like is illegal and that is just the way of the world. Tough titties. Get over it. Enjoy it. Live on! Stop wishing for the wind to stop blowing and instead grab a kite and have fun.
 
I can put this to rest: Is zoo activism a good deed? Yes. But is legislation that legalizes zoophilia going to happen in our lifetime? No. It will not. Even if a few politicians agreed with us, it would not get done. Too many people are against us in ways that is equivalent to hatred towards minorities by white supremacists. Until some miracle comes out, our chances of getting our sexuality legalized locally, or nationally is next to never.

Probably the most logical way to fight the anti-zoo laws would to be in the form of a lawsuit (court challenge):


We should be happy to have sites like this. That we can talk and share ideas and feelings. We can also know that what we like is illegal and that is just the way of the world. Tough titties. Get over it. Enjoy it. Live on! Stop wishing for the wind to stop blowing and instead grab a kite and have fun.

The laws might get so bad that zoo websites might not even be able to exist anymore. Things are getting worse, and no one is doing anything to stop it.
 
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Probably the most logical way to fight the anti-zoo laws would to be in the form of a lawsuit (court challenge):



You gonna be the one to step right up and announce "I'll be fucking my goat at 8PM tomorrow night - come arrest me if you've got the balls for it!" so that you've got standing to be able to make the challenge?

Remember, you have to have something to lose before you can fight a case. If you're just an "interested bystander", you have no legal standing, and the court tells you to shut up and take a nice long walk.

Are you ready to lose your animals (if you have any)? Are you ready to find yourself in stir for the next <however many> years, and come out on the sex offender's register, almost certainly forbidden to have contact with any animals, forbidden to own animals, etc, etc, etc that goes with being a convicted animal fucker? Are you ready for your animals to be killed because you think it's a good idea to "stand up and fight for our rights"?

Until you are, sit down and shut up. You're running your mouth to no effect.
 
@Zoo50 Websites for zoophiles will continue to exist in some form, as long as people like you keep to themselves and stop trying to bring attention to this community. Don't you realize that advocating for zoophilia will only make things worse for us? Zoos are better left alone and in the dark than in the spotlight.
 
@Zoo50 Websites for zoophiles will continue to exist in some form, as long as people like you keep to themselves and stop trying to bring attention to this community. Don't you realize that advocating for zoophilia will only make things worse for us? Zoos are better left alone and in the dark than in the spotlight.

In terms of laws, things are already getting bad for zoos. In other words, silence isn't working. The anti-zoo organizations are the only ones being heard, so their agenda is succeeding.

In terms of U.S. state legislatures, zoos are not in the dark -- they are already in the spotlight, because of anti-zoo organizations like HSUS.

Concerning the main subject of this thread started by SigmatoZeta: how are zoos supposed to organize when zoos are silent, pessimistic, hiding in the closet, and doing nothing (while more and more oppressive laws get passed)?

For all the people saying "be silent and hide": I do somewhat agree. Being silent and hiding does increase one's individual security and anonymity. However, if no zoos organize, chances are that nothing will ever improve for zoos.
 
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I can put this to rest: Is zoo activism a good deed? Yes. But is legislation that legalizes zoophilia going to happen in our lifetime? No. It will not. Even if a few politicians agreed with us, it would not get done. Too many people are against us in ways that is equivalent to hatred towards minorities by white supremacists. Until some miracle comes out, our chances of getting our sexuality legalized locally, or nationally is next to never.
The truth is that there is a lot of gray area between now and then. For now, we can focus on making inroads in non-zoo society, so maybe you can at least find a pet-sitter that you can trust long enough for you to make a business trip. We can focus on developing a strong mentoring culture and a concept of moral leadership, so we can avert young zoos from getting into trouble later in life. There is really a lot of gray area, between here and our perfect world.

We don't need to be thinking about getting our perfect world, right now, but we need to start thinking clearly about what opportunities are most realistic for us to start talking about right now.
 
In terms of laws, things are already getting bad for zoos. In other words, silence isn't working. The anti-zoo organizations are the only ones being heard, so their agenda is succeeding.

In terms of U.S. state legislatures, zoos are not in the dark -- they are already in the spotlight, because of anti-zoo organizations like HSUS.

Concerning the main subject of this thread started by SigmatoZeta: how are zoos supposed to organize when zoos are silent, pessimistic, hiding in the closet, and doing nothing (while more and more oppressive laws get passed)?

For all the people saying "be silent and hide": I do somewhat agree. Being silent and hiding does increase one's individual security and anonymity. However, if no zoos organize, chances are that nothing will ever improve for zoos.
Things can get worse. If we don't make at least a few inroads in society where we can feel relatively protected, then they can get a lot worse.

The "be silent and hide" types have made up their minds to blame us activists and progressives for their problems. They have been demonizing us for their problems. They have been putting us down and mocking us for their problems.

They choose not to acknowledge that the things that really triggered the HSUS moral crusade were things that most of us in the zoo community turned a blind eye to for generations, and our very lack of social visibility is why the HSUS thinks that we are all evil like that. Our very complacency about those things constitutes the most serious malfeasance that I have heard of in my entire life. Us activists did not have the idea to start opening up animal brothels. We did not do those things. Those sorts of things are the things that the HSUS are really reacting to.

The truth is, it doesn't really help your individual security to be completely in the closet. Finding allies in your existence that you can trust actually makes you safer. If that person understood that this was normal about you and that you were an okay person, then in the worst possible situation, that would be the person that paid for your bail and made an effort to spring your animal from the death camp.

Being "out" is a multi-level thing. I learned this when gay rights were on the move in the late 1990's. Early on, I could only be out to strangers that didn't even know my name because I could not really afford to have it leak back to anyone I was connected with. Eventually, I had certain classmates and then coworkers that I could talk to.

There are also horrific people to come out to. If you have a Southern Baptist family, and you've told nobody else you are gay, they'll have you shipped off to some kind of weird Bible camp without telling anybody, and they'll cover it up and also poison your reputation by saying to everybody that you have a drug addiction. They can be pretty evil to their kids. I had one as a mother. Intestinal parasite thinly disguised as a human being.

In some cases, being out does improve your security because it gives you someone you can turn to if you ever did have any trouble, and in other cases, it actually screws up your life plans in a serious way. We had to learn that science over a course of generations. Being out to somebody trustworthy also has an intrinsic value to it: it just makes you feel less stressed when talking to those people.

Anyhow, the people that are trying to silence us have made up their minds they are going to use us as a scapegoat, and I don't appreciate it. I have very moderate and mature views for an activist, and I don't deserve to be demonized for them.
 
Anyhow, the people that are trying to silence us have made up their minds they are going to use us as a scapegoat, and I don't appreciate it. I have very moderate and mature views for an activist, and I don't deserve to be demonized for them.

I think the "be silent and hide" types are concerned about all the things that could go wrong if someone "comes out of the closet" as a zoo. And to a certain extent, they're right. Legally, things are already terrible for zoos in the U.S., and it keeps getting worse every year. The consequences of coming out could be catastrophic. It is a difficult situation.
 
@Zoo50

I am pretty sure that people noticed when a woman was arrested in Oklahoma for pimping out her dogs.

People are not reacting to us private educated citizens that just have sex with our animals in our own homes and actually care for our animals. They barely are aware that we even exist.

They see shock stories in the paper, and every time they hear those shock stories, they just get it all the more confirmed in their heads that we are an evil moral abomination that should be eradicated.

Us activists are not to blame for these laws, but the "be silent and hide" people have chosen to blame us anyway.

They are under a delusion that animal sex is otherwise invisible to society. A publicly advertised animal brothel that is reported in a publicly circulated newspaper is pretty damn visible, and people have a lot more reason to have a negative emotional reaction to that.

Only us zoos really have the power to start reining in that type of malfeasance.

I am just tired of these miserable punks putting off blame on literally ANYBODY that wants to try to make anything better.
 
And the truth is that these laws are really paper thin. My human husband grew up as a gay guy in the 1970's and 1980's, in Miami and in New York City, and there was an active gay scene in those places, even when the sodomy laws were still technically enforceable. Gay men were coming out pretty often, actually, even in those states.

It only took a few early pioneers to prove they could do it and get away with it, and it actually became a bit of a fad and eventually a sort of tradition. People were coming out even here in North Carolina, where it was a felony offense to have gay sex. Actually, I was one of those that did so. I was coming out when I was technically admitting to a felony.

The thing about dumb laws is just that: they're dumb, and when the current witch-hunt is over, they will fall into disuse like all other ill-conceived laws inevitably do.
 
This grows old so quickly. Just because you are alive does not mean you should have rights. *shrug* The way of the world but the kiddies these days do not see it that way. If people are indifferent, leave it at that, do not be forming marches just because you want to throw a fit.

Laws != (do not equal) Morals! Things are not getting worse. People have always had moral issues with zoos. They toss in a law here and a law their who cares. The public does not feel any different than they did. The only reason zoo is catching so much attention is because people are trying to organize and become big and at that point the states/governments say no and slap us with laws.
 
Again, the cold, hard fact is that people still notice bad behaviors like animal sex farms and serious animal abuse. The idea that we are only visible because of activists is extremely misguided. There are so few real activists out there, people hardly notice. They are a lot more aware of shock stories that get circulated in the media.

There are some forms of activism that actually do backfire, and that includes taking part in the outrage culture.


When you stay obsessed over things to stay outraged over and to get up in arms over, that really does end up causing other people to see you as rabble.

This is probably a part of what hurt the Democrats going into the 2016 elections. The truth is that their adversaries had successfully trolled them into shooting themselves in the foot. They had baited the progressives into getting so up-in-arms and so pissed that it really made the progressives look at best Quixotic, at worst dangerous.

Would-be activists would invest their energy better by doing something positive, peaceful, and creative in order to give us zoos some more positive visibility. Something like a podcast or a radio show or a blog that shares peaceful and uplifting messages would give us some visibility without making us look like some kind of dangerous riot mob or something.

Want to be an activist? Great! I have an idea: take an art class, so you can express your zooness through beautiful art.

Learn to play a musical instrument or use your voice as an instrument more effectively, so you can learn to express your zooness in music and song. That's what Elton John did, and it's almost arguable that "gay rights" is nothing but "a lot of British people really liked listening to Elton John."

Even if the only thing you do, to express your zooness, is try to debate people, then you should take a class in debate, so you can learn what structures for an argument actually lead to people changing their opinions.

Whatever it is you have any raw talent for, spend all of that energy that you would otherwise spend on worrying learning how to do something creative and put something positive into the world.

Activism can be done in many ways that are attractive, fun, and really compassionate toward a society that is really just concerned for the welfare of animals, not really trying to hurt anybody. We don't have to treat society like society has become our worst enemy.

There are useful methods of activism, and there are methods of activism that are likely to backfire. We have the historical record to refer to if we want to know what really works well.

The skeptics are not entirely wrong to be concerned about some of the more misguided attempts at activism, but the right way to deal with that concern is to start pointing out the difference between positive activism and just stirring up more trouble. Point out, if you want us zoos to have a better name, then you should invest all of that rage energy in actually doing something that gives us a better name.

There are some zoos now that are starting to do that, and I am grateful for that. I personally have started getting good at drawing, and that has not only been good for me intrinsically; if I ever get really good, then maybe something I create someday will actually mean something to somebody, and even if the only person that gets changed by something that I have created is the one person that ever buys a framed India ink on canvas that I cranked out of my home studio, that's not just one person: that's one MORE person.
 
We should fund academic studies at this point. We need to load legal ammo, get sexologists, animal behaviorlists etc in the next years before attempting to fight a court battle. Thats what id like to do and believe many zoos would donate to support that.
 
Putting some positive message out there: I assembled this site many years ago and I'm amazed that it's still up. I gathered some poets from the a.s.b. days. Some of you old farts may recognize these handles. My handle was Breath then.

 
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