They don't just eat deer and eggs as I've stated multiple times is the issue not feeding a raw diet also a big problem with your argument dogs are NOT wolves they are dogs I'm not going back and forth because you are obviously convinced that a animal thats evolved to eat a varied diet can only subsit on deer meat and eggs I urge you to only ever eat 2 things and see how it goes
Raw Diet
- Thread starter GoldenGait
- Start date
GoldenGait
Citizen of Zooville
Thanks for your input
Larvikyte
Tourist
The meat being raw itself isn’t so much the reason a raw diet is good for them. “Raw” is generally what is referring to a BARF diet - Biologically Appropriate Raw Feeding. This encompasses basically what I listed as good ingredients, to make sure the macro and micro nutrients are met as they would in wild populations by eating stomach, liver, kidney, as well as grazing ( dogs and wolves naturally graze on things they encounter… egg shells, blueberries, roots).
The lean muscle can be cooked, as can the liver and kidney. It does alter the nutrient values available, and kills natural probiotics, so it’s not the default. But bone must always be raw. It is generally just better to keep it all raw, especially in cases with he lean meat being fed on the bone.
The main reason we cook meat is that initially it was easier to digest, so more nutrients from less energy used to get it. Over time we lost the gut bacteria that prevented us getting sick from bacterial toxins causing food poisoning (salmonella, for example) and so cooking became required for our survival. We also don’t have cellulose digesting bacteria so need plant matter to be cooked to allow access to a lot of their nutrients.
And yeah ruminant animals can survive on pasture because of the different bacteria and structure of their digestive systems. Our appendix is what is left of the rumen we had once! They do still have their own nutritional requirements though ? not just grass.
If cooking meat makes it more flavorful, easier to digest and less likely to cause food poisoning, why feed it raw to your dog, why take the chance of making your pup sick, or make yourself sick (given the nature of this forum, I'm guessing there's some close contact going on). What nutrient are you concerned of running out of?
Larvikyte
Tourist
No it makes it more flavourful and easier to digest etc for humans. For dogs the flavour isn’t improved by cooking and raw does not pose any health concerns over food poisoning. You don’t want to always be removing the helpful bacteria for their digestion in raw meat.
While we are both omnivores, dogs still are a lot more carnivorous than we are. Their meat nutrition needs are quite different to ours. The only time it is medically recommended to cook meat for a dog is during gastric upset (diarrhoea, vomiting) or are unwell from other health conditions in order to take the energy load off digestion as much as possible - and only plain boiled chicken breast (or sometimes roasted is ok too).
That's where we disagree. Dogs can and do get intoxication or infections from food. They can also be asymptomatic carriers for certain bacteria and cause illness in the people that handle them or their food.
That sounds a bit contradictory. If they're healthy and their gut flora is normal, they're less likely to get sick from contaminated food. If they're already sick, the risk goes up. Meat is muscle tissue, any bacteria on there will be a contamination.
Larvikyte
Tourist
Raw doesn’t mean off. The meat needs to be fresh still. Dogs get unwell from meat that has a high bacterial load, after it has gone rancid, but don’t get food poisoning in the same way humans do from it just being uncooked. They can get the same illness from rancid cooked meat.
You feed what you want to your dog, I’m not trying to convince anyone what to do. Someone asked for help on what to include in a raw diet, not if they should do it raw.
Meat does have bacteria on it from the moment it is exposed to air, and the nutrients available on the surface allows certain strains of bacteria to grow better than others. You are right that healthy dogs with good gut flora have less risk of upset. These bacteria won’t cause harm to a healthy dog. The risk is much greater for unwell dogs, and feeding cooked meat to unwell dogs isn’t just for killing the bacteria … it is to make sure it is as easily digested as possible, mechanically and chemically. That is why it is only boiled chicken breast and white rice, not just any meat and nothing else. Not a long term feeding, just for a couple of days.
Again you feed what you want, and think what you like. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, just trying to offer information to people who were asking.
You're right, to be fair you're the only one that answered the OP's question with an actual recipe and I haven't offered anything of nutritional value.
I don't want to come off as trying to bash you or anything. I just think it's worth getting informed about the risks as much as about how to balance the diet.
Farmhand640
Zooville Settler
Do your research and you will be just fine. The issue with raw food diets is not that the food is raw; it is that at times the diet is not nutritionally balanced. So, if you are going to do this, spend a lot of time researching. Make sure their diet is balanced nutritionally, and all will go well.
All of my dogs are fed a modified diet consisting of some raw, some processed. The average lifespan on my hard working livestock / hunting dogs has been 13 to 18 years. But I also pay a lot of attention to genetics; what I ask of them; and what their needs dietary and recovery needs are. I bring this up because hard working stock / hunting dogs require an entirely different diet from house dogs, or dogs that are kenneled.
All of my dogs are fed a modified diet consisting of some raw, some processed. The average lifespan on my hard working livestock / hunting dogs has been 13 to 18 years. But I also pay a lot of attention to genetics; what I ask of them; and what their needs dietary and recovery needs are. I bring this up because hard working stock / hunting dogs require an entirely different diet from house dogs, or dogs that are kenneled.
Larvikyte
Tourist
Thanks. You are right it’s important to know risks as well as benefits on anything really
Alright so what is the consensus on the properly balanced raw food diet, assuming it has been frozen for 2-3 weeks at -18c? Haven't found any negative info on google other than risk of bacteria that is very small. Also some people were mentioning 50/50 diets here , can you provide more info? I thought the best aproach is to stick to one type of food to avoid upset stomach issues and etc ?
GoldenGait
Citizen of Zooville
I figured I'd answer this question after a year and a half lol. I think the best approach is to stick to not ONE type of food but the SAME type(s) of food to avoid upset stomach issues because the gut takes time to adjust to different types of food. So, if you get your pup adjusted to a 50/50 diet, he/she will be adjusted to a kibble AND raw meat. This means if you run out of meat and have to feed all kibble for a meal or two, no problem, and vice versa. It makes for a pretty versatile diet. Also, of course, you can use the kibble as a nutritional supplement if you're worried about the meat not providing enough varied nutrients.
As far as the risk of bacteria is concerned, of course that's an issue. If you're feeding raw, you have to be careful about your meat sources, what types of meat you use and how you handle and store it. That seems like a common sense thing to me and a risk that can be easily mitigated with some diligence.
GoldenGait
Citizen of Zooville
I'd also like to provide an update on my own experience with the raw diet. My new puppy, a golden retriever, is now 8 months old and he's absolutely thriving. He's 70 lbs, is strong and energetic, and has a glossy, soft, long coat. I thought I would share my diet info and what I've been doing so far since it seems to be working so well.
I butchered an entire cow elk just for him. I fed him the heart right off the bat. I chunked up the liver and kidneys and put them in a large bowl. I then chunked up all of the meat from the elk, packaging it as I went. I would sprinkle a few pieces of organ into each pile of meat before wrapping it up and putting it in the freezer. When I was done, I had maybe 75 lbs of elk meat that had liver and kidney mixed in.
I've been feeding him twice a day. As a puppy, he got 50/50 kibble and elk with a raw egg and fish oil for breakfast. For dinner he had 50/50 kibble and elk. I got him a good quality fish oil made for pets and followed the dosage suggestions.
Now that he's older, I do the 50/50 kibble and elk with a raw egg and fish oil for both meals, breakfast and dinner, still following the dosage suggestions for the fish oil. Actually, I just recently ran out of elk and have been using chunked beef stew meat fresh and direct from a butcher. There's no organ meat in there, which is a bummer. I haven't figured out yet how or if I want to mitigate that. Maybe I'll just stick it out like that until hunting season rolls around.
Oh, I almost forgot! As a bonus...I saved both both elk femurs with chunks of meat still attached. I gave him one and froze the other for later. It's been phenomenal for the teething process while also giving him the nutritional boosts from the bone marrow.
Anyway, that's what I've been up to and the pup is doing amazing! It's not the easiest thing to butcher an entire elk just for your pup but if you have the means to do so, the pup will absolutely thrive on it.
I butchered an entire cow elk just for him. I fed him the heart right off the bat. I chunked up the liver and kidneys and put them in a large bowl. I then chunked up all of the meat from the elk, packaging it as I went. I would sprinkle a few pieces of organ into each pile of meat before wrapping it up and putting it in the freezer. When I was done, I had maybe 75 lbs of elk meat that had liver and kidney mixed in.
I've been feeding him twice a day. As a puppy, he got 50/50 kibble and elk with a raw egg and fish oil for breakfast. For dinner he had 50/50 kibble and elk. I got him a good quality fish oil made for pets and followed the dosage suggestions.
Now that he's older, I do the 50/50 kibble and elk with a raw egg and fish oil for both meals, breakfast and dinner, still following the dosage suggestions for the fish oil. Actually, I just recently ran out of elk and have been using chunked beef stew meat fresh and direct from a butcher. There's no organ meat in there, which is a bummer. I haven't figured out yet how or if I want to mitigate that. Maybe I'll just stick it out like that until hunting season rolls around.
Oh, I almost forgot! As a bonus...I saved both both elk femurs with chunks of meat still attached. I gave him one and froze the other for later. It's been phenomenal for the teething process while also giving him the nutritional boosts from the bone marrow.
Anyway, that's what I've been up to and the pup is doing amazing! It's not the easiest thing to butcher an entire elk just for your pup but if you have the means to do so, the pup will absolutely thrive on it.
originalnamehere
Citizen of Zooville
I do 50/50 for my ladies. Fully raw is good if you can afford to do it right, most people can't provide the right nutrients in the right amount as they're usually not feeding whole prey in variety.
I've also had dogs not do well on fully raw in terms of keeping a healthy weight.
I've also had dogs not do well on fully raw in terms of keeping a healthy weight.
GoldenGait
Citizen of Zooville
Another vote for the 50/50, I love it. It works so well.
Did your dogs end up underweight or overweight on fully raw?
originalnamehere
Citizen of Zooville
Underweight.