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Problems with zoo Acceptance

UKdog

Tourist
I'd like to prefix this by saying I'm an exprenced though relatively young zoo, and though I'd love more then anything for zoos to be accepted on the level of the LGBTQ community I have some reasons that I believe will prevent general acceptance.

I'm looking for some responses so please give your opinions.

1. If zoos were accepted and publicly promoted in the same way the LGBTQ community was, I believe it would lead to fundamental problems. There is a proportion of people who abuse animals sexually and there is a proportion that would have sex with animals just because they are available (and in the future it's known to be acceptable), and would do so thinking of there own pleasure primarily.

The issue is in animals being unable to voice or really express if abuse is or has taken place. Even an experienced vet may not be able to pick up on any signs unless there is physical abuse visible.

This leads me to think society can't take that chance, tho many ppl may treat their animal parners with love and compassion, those who do not could not be allowed and if the zoo sexuality were promoted and endorsed it may very likely lead to an increase in animal abuse, without the animal being able to aptly tell anyone.

So overall I don't think zoophilia can be widely accepted on the levels of the LGBTQ, due to the bad apple percentage and animals inability to report on their abusers.

Change my mind?
 
My rebuttal is simple.

If you DON'T legalize bestiality, ala not abusive non forced sex with animals like germany, you create a MORE abusive enviroment.

We zoophiles hate zoosadists who actually torture animals for sexual pleasure. We cannot report these people in our midst because ethical zoophilia is illegal.

If zoo is illegal or not, these sadists will continue to exist. Making bestiality legal will protect animals from abusers like them.
 
Oh yes, what ZTHorse said.

Imagine this situation:
You have a dog. You have sex with the dog in secret, you have friends who are zoophiles in secret.
You have to leave the dog for someone to take care of for a couple of days because of a family emergency in a place you absolutely cannot bring them with you, so you leave the dog at your zoo friend's place who you trust very much.
You do the trip, come back and when you go get your dog back home, you instantly notice they are just not right, they look hurt and scared. You find evidence of abuse on your dog, you are devastated, you trusted that person and they completely broke your trust and hurt your lover. Your friend has been a zoosadist all this time.
You want to go to the authorities to get the zoosadist arrested, but they blackmail you. This is why they just abused your dog in the first place - they know you're either powerless or ruined, possibly prosecuted and the dog permanently taken away or put down because you are a zoo, too.
You'd have to decide between getting justice, but you also getting possible jail time, defamation or losing your dog forever or just letting the sadist continue, try to warn others, but you know he will get his hands on more animals to abuse in the future.

If zoophilia was legal, we could report crime amidst our community much more freely, much easier.
The social outcasting has made the animal's safety compromised and the zoophilic population muzzled, having to witness horrors or lose all they have.
 
@HoundDogRuffDog

That only makes me want to have 0 social contacts and avoid having to go out to do anything and avoid making trips.
 
@HoundDogRuffDog

That only makes me want to have 0 social contacts and avoid having to go out to do anything and avoid making trips.

I know, right?

I've decided to fight, though. I want to make things better instead of just hiding forever.
Advocacy is not something everyone has to do, it's scary, draining and for us - dangerous. So I understand wanting to hide, and doing so.

But what we're talking here is if anti-zoophilia laws would help protect animals or not.
 
I'd like to prefix this by saying I'm an exprenced though relatively young zoo, and though I'd love more then anything for zoos to be accepted on the level of the LGBTQ community I have some reasons that I believe will prevent general acceptance.

I'm looking for some responses so please give your opinions.

1. If zoos were accepted and publicly promoted in the same way the LGBTQ community was, I believe it would lead to fundamental problems. There is a proportion of people who abuse animals sexually and there is a proportion that would have sex with animals just because they are available (and in the future it's known to be acceptable), and would do so thinking of there own pleasure primarily.

The issue is in animals being unable to voice or really express if abuse is or has taken place. Even an experienced vet may not be able to pick up on any signs unless there is physical abuse visible.

This leads me to think society can't take that chance, tho many ppl may treat their animal parners with love and compassion, those who do not could not be allowed and if the zoo sexuality were promoted and endorsed it may very likely lead to an increase in animal abuse, without the animal being able to aptly tell anyone.

So overall I don't think zoophilia can be widely accepted on the levels of the LGBTQ, due to the bad apple percentage and animals inability to report on their abusers.

Change my mind?
I think your views on the subject are firmly grounded in reality. A lot of folks who are shouting from the rooftops about “zoo rights“ haven’t poked their head out of the “zoo community echo chamber“. It’s delusional to think that bestiality will ever be accepted on the same level as LGBTQ groups. Hell, humanity cannot even accept other humans because they have different color skin. This isn’t even touching on sex or sexuality, which is an even more taboo subject in certain cultures. The vast majority of societies on this planet do not, and will not accept other humans having sexual relations with animals. Personally, the best I can hope for is that there will be more scientific research on the subject of bestiality/zoophilia, and that research might make the topic a little more approachable.
 
@UKdog, why do think that someone who wants to abuse animals would do so, when abuse is forbidden, but not do so, when non-abusive sex is also forbidden? What he wants to do is forbidden in either case. The animal can't call the police or talk to the vet in either case.

In this scenario zoophillia has been legalised endorsed by the public and public figures as just another sexuality, in this case more ppl would be aware of zoophilia as a sexuality and legitimate sexual outlet for individuals.

I think that just with a larger proportion of ppl aware and not off put by any taboo would engage in zoo sex, and a percentage would abuse and would be able to get away with it relatively easily.
My point is ppl will abuse animals and when given the option by society saying it's ok to have sex with animals. Cases of abuse would increase just as practicing participant number of non abusers would increase, it's the inability of the animal to easily or obviously convey abuse that worries me as I don't see how governments could endorse something knowing the relative danger this brings to animals.

There will always be a proportion of a group that are bad apple and when that group undergoes growth the bad apple growe in number too.
 
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In this scenario zoophillia has been legalised endorsed by the public and public figures as just another sexuality, in this case more ppl would be aware of zoophilia as a sexuality and legitimate sexual outlet for individuals.

I think that just with a larger proportion of ppl aware and not off put by any taboo would engage in zoo sex, and a percentage would abuse and would be able to get away with it relatively easily.
My point is ppl will abuse animals and when given the option by society saying it's ok to have sex with animals. Cases of abuse would increase just as practicing participant number of non abusers would increase, it's the inability of the animal to easily or obviously convey abuse that worries me as I don't see how governments could endorse something knowing the relative danger this brings to animals.

There will always be a proportion of a group that are bad apple and when that group undergoes growth the bad apple growe in number too.
Its the inverse. When something is illegal, it always breeds deeper harm. Look at the war on drugs, more people die in the drug war than the actual drugs. Prohibition etc etc... there is good people but when you let evils in those things prevail, its far more abusive system than if it were legal and regulated by society.

Germanys legal example is what we zoos want to see. Only if the animals is harmed and if it isnt forced to. This allows us to report abusers that grow like cancer that the zoos do see but cant do anything about.
 
I'll stir the pot a little..

Are zoosadists the only evil around this genre? I am concerned about thoose who ask what dog has the best dick/pussy. Or those who go for a Husky because all the good old zoo stories are about huskies. I am afraid that many end up with an animal they can't take proper care of. All animals need more than sex. Much more. Or what about the quite common cases: "My dog won't hump me". Somehow I have a strange feeling that a good part of these ownerships will soon come to an end when it turns out that the creature really won't do it no matter what. The folks with profiles decorated with Zetas like flies on cowmist, those who know better about animal welfare. Remember DB2K from BF? Mr Alwaysright. He knew better, always knew the right answer.... Until it blew up how he kept his dogs. Then there was one of the "My dog is my wife" types on another defunct site. One day he discovered that his "wife" had died 3 days earlier. I still wonder how he found out. Cold experience perhaps?
 
I'll stir the pot a little..

Are zoosadists the only evil around this genre? I am concerned about thoose who ask what dog has the best dick/pussy. Or those who go for a Husky because all the good old zoo stories are about huskies. I am afraid that many end up with an animal they can't take proper care of. All animals need more than sex. Much more. Or what about the quite common cases: "My dog won't hump me". Somehow I have a strange feeling that a good part of these ownerships will soon come to an end when it turns out that the creature really won't do it no matter what. The folks with profiles decorated with Zetas like flies on cowmist, those who know better about animal welfare. Remember DB2K from BF? Mr Alwaysright. He knew better, always knew the right answer.... Until it blew up how he kept his dogs. Then there was one of the "My dog is my wife" types on another defunct site. One day he discovered that his "wife" had died 3 days earlier. I still wonder how he found out. Cold experience perhaps?

Yeah, I agree. People need to invest more than what they find the most aesthetically pleasing or sexy. They need to know the animal fits their lives in every way. This happens enough with any pretty or desired dog breed which is "in" at the moment. People want a pretty or popular puppy but don't buy from a good breeder, or do their research.

There was a surge of horse zoo's when My Little Pony - Friendship Is Magic became popular and the "brony" subculture was formed.
Completelu clueless guys posted around beastforum asking for a good breed of horse to fuck, not even providing basic information like their climate, space or horse experience.. Just some guys thinking buying a mare would give them access to sex.

I think we have a good community here to guide those people to think again.
It might be fun to ponder what kind of a dog has the biggest dick, but it's not a good basis for buying one..
 
There was a surge of horse zoo's when My Little Pony - Friendship Is Magic became popular and the "brony" subculture was formed.
Completelu clueless guys posted around beastforum asking for a good breed of horse to fuck, not even providing basic information like their climate, space or horse experience..

Further adding to my confirmation bias that a number of the bronies in the fandom, want the real thing as in a real mare to fool around with.
 
People have been having sex with animals and who knows what else since the dawn of time. But making it not illegal would atleast save a bunch of animals. Who would have other wise been killed.GloryQuest was pretty successful. The only issue with legislation is one issue which I think why it's illegal in the first place. Female animals. I have seen male dogs hump people. But I have never seen a female dog try to mate with a human. I don't think it can ever be socially accepted or normalized. Even I go poor animal when I see em get penetrated. But I got no problem with them doing the penetration. Male or female I have never seen an animal willingly want to be penetrated by a humanbeing. That's why I feel its frowned upon along with sadist.
 
Oh yes, what ZTHorse said.

Imagine this situation:
You have a dog. You have sex with the dog in secret, you have friends who are zoophiles in secret.
You have to leave the dog for someone to take care of for a couple of days because of a family emergency in a place you absolutely cannot bring them with you, so you leave the dog at your zoo friend's place who you trust very much.
You do the trip, come back and when you go get your dog back home, you instantly notice they are just not right, they look hurt and scared. You find evidence of abuse on your dog, you are devastated, you trusted that person and they completely broke your trust and hurt your lover. Your friend has been a zoosadist all this time.
You want to go to the authorities to get the zoosadist arrested, but they blackmail you. This is why they just abused your dog in the first place - they know you're either powerless or ruined, possibly prosecuted and the dog permanently taken away or put down because you are a zoo, too.
You'd have to decide between getting justice, but you also getting possible jail time, defamation or losing your dog forever or just letting the sadist continue, try to warn others, but you know he will get his hands on more animals to abuse in the future.

If zoophilia was legal, we could report crime amidst our community much more freely, much easier.
The social outcasting has made the animal's safety compromised and the zoophilic population muzzled, having to witness horrors or lose all they have.
Imo this may sound crazy but anyone who hurts/kills my girl is gonna get it and possibly not continue to exist if they also had a past of torturing animals for the thrills. No one is gonna blackmail me. That kind of evil shouldnt exist. (Excuse me if im tilted but sadists trigger me.) The fact that they are allowed to use "the law" as a weapon triggers me more.
 
The long form of LGBTQ+ is LGBTQIAPK which stands for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Intersex, Asexual, Polygamous/Polyamorous, and Kink" I've seen some people tack on a Z at the end of that acronym, and "certain degenerates" will try and tack on a C. While I might argue that "K" is so vague that it might cover it. I see my love is way more than a mere Kink though.

With this issue I'm torn. Yes, I'd love to not be in constant fear because of the love between my dog and I. Animal abusers will abuse animals regardless of the law as well. But you're correct, some might not be sexually abusing animals just due to illegality of it. But That number is more than likely very low.

Anything else I might have to say on it would just mirror @ZTHorse 's reply.
 
People have been having sex with animals and who knows what else since the dawn of time. But making it not illegal would atleast save a bunch of animals. Who would have other wise been killed.

Making bestiality legal and making injuring/killing animals legal are two different things. You could very well legalize sex with animals and at the same time raise punishments for injuring/killing animals.

(That said, millions of healthy animals are legally killed every year and people pay for getting a piece of their remains.)
 
The long form of LGBTQ+ is LGBTQIAPK which stands for "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Intersex, Asexual, Polygamous/Polyamorous, and Kink" I've seen some people tack on a Z at the end of that acronym, and "certain degenerates" will try and tack on a C. While I might argue that "K" is so vague that it might cover it. I see my love is way more than a mere Kink though.

With this issue I'm torn. Yes, I'd love to not be in constant fear because of the love between my dog and I. Animal abusers will abuse animals regardless of the law as well. But you're correct, some might not be sexually abusing animals just due to illegality of it. But That number is more than likely very low.

Anything else I might have to say on it would just mirror @ZTHorse 's reply.
That's what I like about Germany - you can have sex with your animals as long as they're not being abused.
 
Making bestiality legal and making injuring/killing animals legal are two different things. You could very well legalize sex with animals and at the same time raise punishments for injuring/killing animals.

(That said, millions of healthy animals are legally killed every year and people pay for getting a piece of their remains.)
I really don't see how what you quoted and what your wrote correlate.
 
I really don't see how what you quoted and what your wrote correlate.
abusive bestiality/sadism and normal/healthy bestiality are 2 seperate things are what see in what he said. make hurting/killing X animal more severe while also protecting the legit zoophiles. thats what i read in his quote.
 
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abusivebestiality/sadism and normal/healthy bestiality are 2 seperate things are what see in what he said. make hurting/killing X animal more severe while also protecting the legit zoophiles. thats what i read in his quote.
He only quoted a peice of what I wrote. It's what left me confused.
 
My rebuttal is simple.

If you DON'T legalize bestiality, ala not abusive non forced sex with animals like germany, you create a MORE abusive enviroment.

We zoophiles hate zoosadists who actually torture animals for sexual pleasure. We cannot report these people in our midst because ethical zoophilia is illegal.

If zoo is illegal or not, these sadists will continue to exist. Making bestiality legal will protect animals from abusers like them.
Well said I couldn't articulate it any better
 
Further adding to my confirmation bias that a number of the bronies in the fandom, want the real thing as in a real mare to fool around with.

I can tell you for sure that a lot of them that are into the r34 side of it do and some of them might even be zoo, by that I mean they actually have feelings for horses and are not just wanting a horse shaped sex doll.

Obviously their are some creeps in there but that's true of any group really.
 
It's gonna be an even bigger battle than LGBT folks had to go through. In fact wasn't that part of the fear mongering against gay marriage? If you let those people marry even more horrifying things like people marrying their pet will happen. You'll not only have to fight every single religious organization across the planet, you'll have all the animal rights folks against ya, almost every government, and at least half of the LGBT community (because this was coupled alongside CP for horror stories about gay rights). Yes, that's right folks bestiality and CP are on the same level for folks on the other side of the isle, you're the even bigger badder people than *gasp* gays.

Zoo rights are a pipe dream, because there is no unified community. We don't have some crisis, like the AIDS epidemic to bring us all together to fight for our rights and spark empathy from the public. Anyone speaking up will be out on a limb by themselves, sure they may garner support online but that's it. We've been cautioned and cautioning people for decades to be careful not to expose themselves, these folks aren't suddenly gonna hit their FB pages to declare their zoophilia in support of so-and-so. Seeing the rise of this "disturbing trend," is likely to cause more harm than good and they'll up the ante by passing even more laws prohibiting it. Not only are you "violating that poor defenseless animal," you're condemning them to death (even if they enjoy it) to satisfy your own carnal lust because they will be seized and put down. The current administration has installed over a hundred VERY conservative judges to the courts. Judges who's entire careers were built around being so conservative they wouldn't be considered for the supreme court are now your judges. You think you're gonna get all this by them? :ROFLMAO:

I personally believe this is all wishful thinking and hope that folks pushing for this type of change are the ones out there experiencing the result and not just doin' the sjw keyboard warrior routine and encouraging others to take the fall while they sit in their comfy homes collecting donations for "the cause."
 
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It's gonna be an even bigger battle that LGBT folks had to go through. In fact wasn't that part of the fear mongering against gay marriage? If you let those people marry even more horrifying things like people marrying their pet will happen. You'll not only have to fight every single religious organization across the planet, you'll have all the animal rights folks against ya, almost every government, and at least half of the LGBT community (because this was coupled alongside CP for horror stories about gay rights). Yes, that's right folks bestiality and CP are on the same level for folks on the other side of the isle, you're the even bigger badder people than *gasp* gays.

Zoo rights are a pipe dream, because there is no unified community. We don't have some crisis, like the AIDS epidemic to bring us all together to fight for our rights and spark empathy from the public. Anyone speaking up will be out on a limb by themselves, sure they may garner support online but that's it. We've been cautioned and cautioning people for decades to be careful not expose themselves, these folks aren't suddenly gonna hit their FB pages to declare their zoophilia in support of so-and-so. Seeing the rise of this "disturbing trend," is likely to cause more harm than good and they'll up the ante by passing even more laws prohibiting it. Not only are you "violating that poor defenseless animal," you're condemning them to death (even if they enjoy it) to satisfy your own carnal lust because they will be seized and put down. The current administration has installed over a hundred VERY conservative judges to the courts. Judges who's entire careers were built around being so conservative they wouldn't be considered for the supreme court are now your judges. You think you're gonna get all this by them? :ROFLMAO:

I personally believe this is all wishful thinking and hope that folks pushing for this type of change are the ones out there experiencing the result and not just doin' the sjw keyboard warrior routine and encouraging others to take the fall while they sit in their comfy homes collecting donations for "the cause."
Sitting around and doing nothing would be the same things as giving the antis a free pass. So what can we do? I'd love to try and make a difference myself but, being a strange person, I'd cause far more harm than good. (As I'm not a zoo it gives me some flexibility but social inability would automatically make someone like me disqualified to try and change things.)

Is there anything anyone can do?
 
Is there anything anyone can do?
Don't get me wrong I wish this were an accepted lifestyle. I'm just laying out some hard truths that seem to escape folks here. You're going to have an even harder struggle than the LGBT movement, without any of the sympathy, and even more of the moral outrage. In fact the more I think about it the gays will likely have to have an even stronger response in condemnation. You'll be doing "The Lords Work", by proving to the world that the religious nuts were right. They allowed gay marriage and now people want public recognition for their relationships with animals. You'll be painted as a plot by conservatives to attack the LGBT community. Even progressive groups will be forced to come out against it for fear that all the strides made for LGBT rights will crumble under renewed religious fervor. Many rights for our Trans members have already been stripped away under this administration, so we're not even close to having solid footing as it is. Are we willing to potentially sacrifice the rights of others for an outcome that may result in all of us failing? I know my answer, and I know what I'd think about people with the opposite answer.

As for your answer Pillar, "I don't know." Someone may be able to muster the optimism or delusion to give you a different one, but I don't know.
 
I'd like to prefix this by saying I'm an exprenced though relatively young zoo, and though I'd love more then anything for zoos to be accepted on the level of the LGBTQ community I have some reasons that I believe will prevent general acceptance.

I'm looking for some responses so please give your opinions.

1. If zoos were accepted and publicly promoted in the same way the LGBTQ community was, I believe it would lead to fundamental problems. There is a proportion of people who abuse animals sexually and there is a proportion that would have sex with animals just because they are available (and in the future it's known to be acceptable), and would do so thinking of there own pleasure primarily.

The issue is in animals being unable to voice or really express if abuse is or has taken place. Even an experienced vet may not be able to pick up on any signs unless there is physical abuse visible.

This leads me to think society can't take that chance, tho many ppl may treat their animal parners with love and compassion, those who do not could not be allowed and if the zoo sexuality were promoted and endorsed it may very likely lead to an increase in animal abuse, without the animal being able to aptly tell anyone.

So overall I don't think zoophilia can be widely accepted on the levels of the LGBTQ, due to the bad apple percentage and animals inability to report on their abusers.

Change my mind?
Zoophilia tends to get more problematic the more it is driven underground. If anything, I WANT a young zoophile's friends, parents, neighbors, clergy, doctors, and other people in their lives helping act as watch-dogs. It's not about having liberty to do as we please: in a way, it's partly the opposite. It's inviting in oversight. It's really about protecting our safety and the safety of our animals, and while this includes keeping us safe from mentally unhinged vigilantes, do you really want a young zoophile with average intelligence or less doing this shit without someone there to point out if his dog is obviously stressed? Do you really want well-meaning but slightly dimwitted zoophiles to be doing this in secrecy without any oversight at all?

Insert a relatively educated friend into that person's life that can say, "Bro, your dog is gnawing her paws so bad they bleed, and that's like a girl cutting herself. When you see signs of stress like that, you should think about everything you are doing. What are you feeding her? What is the state of her bedding? Is her water dish clean? Have you even tried to flea-treat her? Is she getting taken outside often enough? Is she getting enough play? And by the way, what have you been doing with her in the bedroom?" That person knowing about the bedroom behavior could significantly improve the odds of the problem being successfully diagnosed. Maybe you could figure it out on your own, but "average intelligence" is relatively low wattage. That's why an extra set of eyes really makes this person's animal safer. I want this person's mom, dad, preacher, best friend, social worker, and teacher to know. I want to pack enough people around this person to make sure that nothing bad happens to either him or his animal.

I am perhaps the reigning monarch of citing the many similarities between us and the LGBT community, but I really think that we AND our animals benefit disproportionately from exposure. The differences, between us and other communities, make it more urgent for us to start coming out, not less.

In fact, I have even thought of the possibility that we could take a similar route to the transgender community and users of medicinal marijuana, which is to get legal immunity while visiting routinely with a professional sexologist that is experienced with zoophiles and provides both oversight and instruction on safety and care. It is one possible model that has not received very much attention in the zooey community, but it is a similar model to ones that have worked elsewhere in the past.

That model would work great in California: they visit psychiatric professionals there more often than they go to the bathroom, and if a group of sexologists there said "give these people legal immunity, so we can supervise them," I am pretty sure that their government would listen. I think all it would take would be getting a group of sexologists to recognize that they can actually do us and our animals a valuable service, and I think they could get the exception through the legislature in a matter of months.

I think that the zooey community has strong parallels and differences with other communities, but as a matter of fact, I think that we and our animals can actually benefit uniquely robustly from exposure. Exposure does not just protect us relatively morally well-adjusted zoos from persecution, but it also provides oversight to make sure that we get to define and direct the acceptable norms.

I want these people to be able to start fearlessly coming out because I actually care a rodent's rectum about the safety of themselves and their animals. I could selfishly do what I do behind blinded windows for my entire life, but I am not capable of that level of selfishness. Remember, Doug Spink was one of those zoophiles that fought against the toxic culture on BeastForum, and @TogglesHappyZoo is a longtime animal rights activist. At heart, we are animal rights activists first, zoophiles second. Seeking exposure is not just about expanding our rights, but it's also about protecting the safety of zoophiles and their animals. We have seen how ugly the zooey community can get when it's been driven underground, and staying an underground community is clearly not working.
 
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That is true, but reconsider your "selfish" connotation. There are many zoophiles with careers, families, and their lovers that are put on the line if they are outed or subject to our flawed legal system and they have a legitimate fear of having their life destroyed. For many, being exposed as a zoo, losing one's partners, or similar can be deeply traumatic.
 
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