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Is anyone a vegetarian or vegan?

Are you a vegetarian or a vegan?

  • I am a vegetarian or vegan

    Votes: 43 26.5%
  • I am not a vegetarian or vegan

    Votes: 119 73.5%

  • Total voters
    162
I think the key point in your statement where I am not convinced yet is the one concerning the inherent value of beings (which is big enough that killing them can't be justified).

Where does that inherent value come from?

I would agree that self-conscious beings who value their own life have, thereby, some value in and of themselves, but I am no sure that this is what you mean …? Otherwise I usually experience value as something that is attributed or created by others. Stuff that is necessary, loved, useful or desired is valuable. How much varies.

And how do I know when the inherent value is big enough that I may not kill? Is there an absolute limit or some grey area we can define reasonably?

I agree with what @Llandefie said -- a being's life has value because that being (whether it is a cow, human, pig, dog, etc.) has a desire to live and survive -- and that being also has a right to live. Therefore, killing a being (cow, human, dog, pig, etc.) is murder -- hence where the phrase "meat is murder" comes from. And, as Llandefie said, a situation in which "less suffering" occurs, but the being is still killed, is still immoral. For example, even if a pig is killed without any suffering, the act of killing the pig in and of itself is immoral (just as killing a dog or a human is immoral).

In terms of which beings one should not kill, there are certainly many beings (within various species) that should not be killed -- dogs, humans, pigs, cows, goats, horses, cats, llamas, whales, dolphins, etc. should not be killed. Generally, animals with a brain and nervous system should not be killed.
 
The value of a life is inherent because that living being wants to stay living. You can find it out by interacting with them, or assume it by virtue of them being a member of a species that exists because it evolved to successfully survive. So I guess you could say, the value of the life of a cow comes from herself.

Great, I think you and @Zoo50 and I agree that an animal with a will to live, an animal which values its own life, has thereby value in and of itself. I also think that this point should be pretty clear and easy to agree to for anyone. :)

As a side note, I disagree with "or assume it by virtue of them being a member of a species that exists because it evolved to successfully survive" for a number of reasons, but maybe it's enough to say that this would also apply to the carrot mentioned earlier? I can go into more detail, if desired.

Whether or not a person has a different opinion doesn't matter, her life is what's at stake so she should have the final say.

I reckon that why the animal's will necessarily counts more than the will of a human to eat the animal is something that may still need more explanation to be convincing to everyone. But I want to say that I like what this discussion has produced so far already.
 
I love meat. I was raised on a primarily meat based diet. However the part of me that is xoo is a bit disgusted by this. I kind of calm it down though that I would eat human just as soon as I eat cow(never have but admit I a am curious, animals being our equal it's well I'm not saying itz right this is just my logic) anyways I am switching over to a more soylent and huel based diet as I never enjoyed vegetables much. This allows me to eat healthy while not eating meat that much and just I feel good about it despite enjoying meat very much I feel terrible about the fact that it used to be a living creature.
 
I eat Keto
As a country girl I cold never work out why it is ok to plough a field where the rabbits and mice and other animals that live underground killing them then plant a crop and spray them with pesticides/ herbicides to kill all the insects then bait other animals/ insects that eat the grain in storage in total killing millions of creatures that is seen as ok.
But to kill our own cows and sheep to eat would be seen as bad.
I fully respect this. Unfortunately there truly is no perfect path. I myself could never give up breads. It is one of my favorite things to eat. It's a complicated situation when it comes to being zoo and what one eats but we must all go forward the best we can. If I may. How is it being keto?
 
Zoo50
I disagree with various parts of that statement, but I think I understand your sentiment.
Firstly, there is absolutely a "natural order" to all life. Predetors eat prey, bugs eat plants, birds eat bugs. Etc etc. An oversimplification yes but you get my point.
The natural order of life is the structured ecosystem evolved over millions of years of trial and error, and every piece has a role in the great cycle.
Where do we humans fit in? At the top of course. To answer that question fully we would have to look at the evolution of our species. Since thats a long and boring lecture, Ill keep it short and sweet.
Our bodies, clearly, are designed to eat just about anything. We are omnivores. We can take any food, any diet, and our body will do its best to survive on it. But thriving is not the same as surviving.
We arent evolved to be herbivores, thats a fact, but we can choose to be if we wish to.

I never said vegetarians were all unhealthy, I simply said that eating meat is important for a man to be in optimal health.
I wont rely on pills to be healthy.
I could give you a long boring lecture on testosterone production and protein synthesis, healthy cholesterol and vitamins but again I will keep it short and sweet.
We can eat anything we want for any reason we want. I could live on rice alone if I chose to subject my body to that, but it doesnt make it optimal or natural, definitely not healthy.

The things I state about my diet are not me reciting some study I chose to cherry pick, but rather the result of years of personal experience.
I feel my best, sharpest and brightest while consuming large amounts of red meat. I perform my best in the gym, burn the most fat and generally emotionally feel the best eating meat. I feel my worst while consuming grains and processed foods. I feel weaker, slower, bloated and mentally foggy.
Grains are for prey animals. Humans are not grazing animals.
I like fruit, but too much sugar has the same effects.

Like I said, I was vegetarian (even a vegan for a while), a "healthy" one at that. I ate my soy proteins and took my vitamins, but it was not optimal. I know now that I was not my best. My testosterone levels suffered, my muscle mass was non existant and my body was unsatisfied. I thought it was what was best for the world, and the humane thing to do. I didnt want to contribute to the harming of the planet and the abuse of life. I didnt realize it isnt so black and white as "eating animals means suffering and eating plants means no suffering".

I respect your choice to be a vegetarian, its your body.
I agree that the mainstream meat production industry is disgusting and full of suffering, unhealthy animals.
I recommend farm fresh, grass fed beef that has been humanely and cleanly handled.
Not all animals are tortured.

But, since we are on that topic, someone above made a great point.
What about all the damage and death caused by horticulture and crop production?
Do you honestly believe that me raising a flock of chickens on my land and eating them is worse than what it takes to produce the amount of grains, vegetables and soy that being vegetarian would require?
Think about the tilling, land clearing, tractors, dozers, pesticides, fertilizers, trailers etc, its not exactly a "do no harm" activity..
Big agriculture is a major contributor to many problems. Bad farming is causing eco collapse and the death of the pollinators, thats a fact..
And my point here is not to be contrary and snide, its simply to bring light to the fact that things arent always what they seem.
A local farmer with a small herd of livestock is not an animal abusing monster, but big agriculture is polluting the worlds water suppies and soil as well as decimating many ecosystems..
You dont have to contribute to suffering directly for it to be happening, its just not that black and white.
Youre no healthier or less guilty by not eating meat is my point in summary.


guilty of what?
We need to be very clear about what we are began for..

Weither it is for the animals or for the health or for the planet or all of them..

It's very much unclear what it actually means..

Personally i am vegan on an individual level because i don't want to lie about it and i don't want me boycotting or not, me being an hypocrite or not being the subject of discussion..
And i'm vegan on a political level because it would be drastically better for pretty much all living beings if we lived in a vegan society..

Because mankind being vegan means no more deforestation, it means vertical farming, it means zero waste, it means as little pesticide and as little crop death possible, it means we take much less land and allow the wild to take back a lot of land, that means a lot of carbon trapped, and that means rewilding, that means not just a stop to mass extinction but an inversion of it : new diversity instead of the ridiculous system of conservation we have now where we just try to protect the wild mostly from itself and barely from exploitation and abuse by humans..

A vegan society would
 
I have a very open and accepting philosophy on veganism and vegetarianism, although I myself do not believe I'd go full vegan anywhere in the foreseeable future. One of my girlfriends is as omnivore as I am, another one is vegan (polyamorous).
I have, nevertheless, been cutting on my meat consumption, for environmental reasons.
Also, I frequently start polemic conversations with my more intellectual colleagues by stating that "One cannot argue for the slaughter of animals for the pleasure of eating their bodies, and pretend to have the moral ground of judging others who raise their pets with care and attention, won't kill them, and have sex with them instead". It's so fun to see the face of these people when the reality of the sentence sets in.
 
Just wondering how many other zoos are vegetarian or vegan.

I am a vegetarian -- I do not eat meat because I think it is morally wrong (I don't think animals should be viewed as mere objects to be consumed). Animals should be treated as equal to humans, and that means not eating them.

I also know that the current conditions of factory farms and slaughterhouses in the U.S. and elsewhere are horrific (they are basically animal torture places).

Also, I think things like "if you wouldn't eat a dog, why would you eat a pig?" (Pigs, by the way, can be sexual lovers just like dogs).

There does seem to be some overlap of zoos and vegetarians/vegans.
Actually the dairy industry is more horrible and cruel than the beef industry.
 
My dog eats meat. My cat eats meat. Lions eat meat. If slaughtering animals is good enough for other animals then its good enough for me. Survival of the fittest. I'm sorry I happen to be an apex predator. What can I say? I won the evolutionary lottery.
 
My dog eats meat. My cat eats meat. Lions eat meat. If slaughtering animals is good enough for other animals then its good enough for me. Survival of the fittest. I'm sorry I happen to be an apex predator. What can I say? I won the evolutionary lottery.
HA!! Your mirror must be broken.....cuz you ain't no feline nor canine. True carnivores have very short smooth intestines....to get the poison of the flesh out out quickly. Plus the acidity of the stomach in a carnivore is 10 times stronger than that humans.
Can you eat iflesh raw and bloody?
The human digestive system is exactly like that of the Great apes.
What do they eat?
 
Everyone has the right to eat how they want. I am a total meet lover nothing tastes as good to me as a nice stake.
 
Everyone has the right to eat how they want. I am a total meet lover nothing tastes as good to me as a nice stake.
You are forgetting someone.....the being you are paying to be killed and eating. You right for a moments pleasure should cost them their life?!!!
Can you handle the BAD KARMA?
(On a side note....your spelling is atrocious!)
 
If it tastes great I'm game. I'm open minded.
That's the right attitude!! These days the healthier, cruelty free (at least for the victims that are usually eaten) food products are so delicious in flavour and texture....I fool a lot of my meathead friends!!
So many great food companies out there.
Gardein, Yves, Beyond Meat just to name a few.
 
These days the healthier, cruelty free (at least for the victims that are usually eaten) food products are so delicious in flavour and texture....I fool a lot of my meathead friends!!
So many great food companies out there.
Gardein, Yves, Beyond Meat just to name a few.
I had a vegan burger recently that felt too much like a meat burger for my taste. I hope not all of them get so "good" or I'll have to stop eating vegan burgers. ?
 
I had a vegan burger recently that felt too much like a meat burger for my taste. I hope not all of them get so "good" or I'll have to stop eating vegan burgers. ?
The funny thing to me is there is so much vegan fake meat for them that it’s kind of odd that they don’t eat meat.
 
The funny thing to me is there is so much vegan fake meat for them that it’s kind of odd that they don’t eat meat.
You can get veggie grain burgers with all kinds of chopped veggies and quinoa, spelt or other ancient grains.
Odd? Let me clarify the reasons to you.
Vegans truly care about life and our fellow living beings. Not only for compassionate reasons but for health reasons, also caring for the environment, people in the Third World.....it's all good!!
 
i haven't gone through all posts here....

But to all the people saying one species eating another is "ORDER of Nature" ...... Have you EVER seen a Lion rear a flock of Deers to slaughter them and eat them?
the problem is not in the "Natural Order", the problem is in disrupting it. being greedy. if u want to eat what you want, go live in a jungle. don't live in civilized society and behave in pre-historic cave man manner.
there is enough on the planet for every mans needs, not for every mans greed.
 
W
i haven't gone through all posts here....

But to all the people saying one species eating another is "ORDER of Nature" ...... Have you EVER seen a Lion rear a flock of Deers to slaughter them and eat them?
the problem is not in the "Natural Order", the problem is in disrupting it. being greedy. if u want to eat what you want, go live in a jungle. don't live in civilized society and behave in pre-historic cave man manner.
there is enough on the planet for every mans needs, not for every mans greed.

Why would they bother going to the effort (assuming they were equipped to do so), when they have herds of "deer-alikes", zebras, baboons, various types of poultry, etc, etc, etc, wandering by just about anytime they decide they're hungry?

You really do have a screw loose on this topic, don't you? BUt that's nothing new... The majority of veggies I've had the misfortune of encountering seem to labor under the same delusion, no doubt gleaned from the same idiotic book and/or preached by the same deluded fool they choose to idolize. (and strangely enough, they always seem to look about the same, too - generally scruffy, underfed, pale, and sickly)
 
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