caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
I have recently discovered that venison jerky makes an excellent substitute for bacon in recipes
I am very scared of the vegan movement, they will try to take our right away to have companion animals.
- Thread starter Coolboyman
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Bloodwolf
Dumpster Diver
Yes it does. It can make a good stew as well. I can’t eat it with out Jake Gazing at me for a piece.
Silvervine
Citizen of Zooville
I learned how to turn the plastic shopping bags into reusable ones by basically crocheting them. They work pretty good, and certainly hold up better than the crappy bags they came from.
The main instance I was quoting was a PeTA personell snatching a child's chihuahua off the front porch and euthanizing it immediately. The poor girl was distraught, and if I remember correctly PeTA tried to offer a fruit basket as an apology.
HyperWoof
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
"That's ridiculous reasoning. Someone's value to someone else has no bearing on their intrinsic value. You don't really have any kind of an argument there."
Whose life matters more, a middle class business man with a family or a hermit living off of the local landfill? Yes everyone has a different value, like it or not. And a pig is peanuts compared to any human. If not where do you draw the line? What separates a bear from a mouse? A mouse from an insect?
"When the gas is as concentrated as in the gas chambers, you can bet the carbon dioxide forms carbonic acid. The first two links I shared were medical citations. Watch the video I shared earlier again. Does that look like a kind death? Or humane? It's not. You're trying to justify a horrible action by making it seem less cruel than it is."
Your first source literally subjected humans voluntarily to breathing in Co2 at up to 100% concentration....voluntarily did this to dozens of humans. Yes it's painful, but it's not THAT painful. It's the type of pain you'd endure as a bet from a friend.
Your first two links
"Aversion was assessed from the pigs’ reluctance to enter or remain in the gaseous atmospheres for a reward of apples. When 90% CO2 was in the box, the pigs immediately withdrew their heads, repeatedly attempted to feed, but withdrew their heads when they began to hyperventilate. The following day, three out of six pigs hesitated to enter the box. It was concluded that high concentrations (90%) of CO2 were aversive to the majority of pigs (88%) "
Does that sound like incredible torture to you? Your own source is working in my favour. some of them kept going back for apples despite the gas...Your video demonstrates pigs trying to escape a situation they don't want to be in, not extreme pain levels.
FeralLovin'
Citizen of Zooville
What consequences? Health? I eat meat and my doc says I'm "fit as a fiddle," so none there.
Supporting the agricultural industry? Aside from canned veggies and fresh fruit, I haven't bought any meat in years thanks to the meat I get from my folks.
Morality? I grew up in a home with God fearing people and attended church on Sundays with them until I got older and at no point has raising animals for their products (meat, eggs, milk, ect) came up as immortal, so no burning in hell for us. Also there's no inherent morality, so I don't really care what someone else's morals are. There not mine, plain and simple.
Criminally? I haven't been arrested or fined for biting into a hamburger yet.
So far, I've been consequence free.
HyperWoof
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
"Their lives are equal. One does not have a lesser right to life than the other. Placing a higher value on some humans than others is a dangerous thing. The fact that you think some peoples' lives are worth more than others says a lot about you."
The middle class man has a family that relies on him, is contributing to society and has loved ones around him who would suffer emotionally if he was killed. "sAyS a LoT aBouT yOu" What? This is going to be the opinion of the vast majority (rightfully so) so how does that "say a lot about me"?
To say otherwise is to blind yourself to the reality we all live in.
"What separates a bear from a mouse and a mouse from an insect is a spectrum of consciousness and awareness--also the ability to feel pain and suffer. That still doesn't diminish the individual's own worth. "
So a rat is equal to a bear then? When fields are churned and rats die by the hundreds that's the moral equivalent of hundreds of bear being slaughtered? How about ants, ants have been shown to be more aware than we give credit. An ant with a speck of colored paint on its head will attempt to wipe it off if shown its reflection in a mirror, but wont do it if the paint matches its body.
Does this mean stepping on an ant is a morally reprehensible act? There is absolutely 0 logic behind the opinion that "all live is equal" blah blah bullshit. It doesn't hold water even when confronted by elementary reasoning.
Self-awareness - Wikipedia
"Food is a pretty strong motivator, especially if the pigs were very hungry. Yet, the majority of pigs still didn't want to breathe in the gas. The fact that only a very few went back for apples shows only that the majority avoided it. It still sounds like something we shouldn't be doing to animals that have done nothing wrong to us. The fact still remains that this is a cruel and unnecessary process. You're just trying to find ways to make it not look bad.
So you're trying to tell me that these pigs that are being subjected to the same supposed pain as those in the video you linked, are willing to go through that pain to get some fuckin' apples? lol. You're starting to sound like Zoo50 and his Beastfight friend
This thread is the biggest see-saw ride ever.
Vegans want to take the high ground saying if you eat meat then you are supporting killing animals and saying that killing them is immoral that they are equals and have as much right to life as any other species. Great argument if you agree with that point, but invalid if you do not.
The fact is that nobody, not even vegans view every living thing on this planet as having the same value and right to life. A human is equal in value to other humans, a dog is equal in value to other dogs, a cow is equal in value to other cows, a beetle is equal in value to other beetles, and vegetable products are equal to vegetable products in value, but they are not equal to each other in value.
Vegans then counter when shown that they too are guilty of any use of animal products by saying things like it can't be an all or nothing argument. But yes it can because a vegan that is not a hypocrite will go out of their way and not use any product having or using animal products in it's production. Saying that it is impossible because the manufacturing is out of their control is not a valid argument when all they would need to do is do without that product.
Yes it is true that plastic is made using animal byproducts and to be a true vegan then that would mean plastic is off limits. Say goodbye to your computer and most things in life. True it could be made using synthetically manufactured plastics, but at 10 times the cost (according to goggle) it is not likely to occur and the point is not that it can be made synthetically but rather that it is made using animal products and therefore to be a true vegan you must do without.
The overwhelming fact is: You can’t live if you don’t kill.
Precisely and unarguably true. Vegans like all of us eat things that were once alive. The contradiction in their message is obvious to everybody but vegans. There is no such thing as who is at fault more.
Vegans want to take the high ground saying if you eat meat then you are supporting killing animals and saying that killing them is immoral that they are equals and have as much right to life as any other species. Great argument if you agree with that point, but invalid if you do not.
The fact is that nobody, not even vegans view every living thing on this planet as having the same value and right to life. A human is equal in value to other humans, a dog is equal in value to other dogs, a cow is equal in value to other cows, a beetle is equal in value to other beetles, and vegetable products are equal to vegetable products in value, but they are not equal to each other in value.
Vegans then counter when shown that they too are guilty of any use of animal products by saying things like it can't be an all or nothing argument. But yes it can because a vegan that is not a hypocrite will go out of their way and not use any product having or using animal products in it's production. Saying that it is impossible because the manufacturing is out of their control is not a valid argument when all they would need to do is do without that product.
Yes it is true that plastic is made using animal byproducts and to be a true vegan then that would mean plastic is off limits. Say goodbye to your computer and most things in life. True it could be made using synthetically manufactured plastics, but at 10 times the cost (according to goggle) it is not likely to occur and the point is not that it can be made synthetically but rather that it is made using animal products and therefore to be a true vegan you must do without.
The overwhelming fact is: You can’t live if you don’t kill.
Precisely and unarguably true. Vegans like all of us eat things that were once alive. The contradiction in their message is obvious to everybody but vegans. There is no such thing as who is at fault more.
T
Tailo
Guest
And so it doesn't matter how much and whom we kill (except for humans)?
caikgoch
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
I am a jerk, an old worn out jerk that got that way applying real science and practical knowledge to save a *lot* of lives. You are naive. It's not an insult, it's a fact. Your own words demonstrate it.
FeralLovin'
Citizen of Zooville
We want meat and popping an animal in the dome is a good way to get it.
People can do what they like with their land they own. Raise livestock, dig a massive pond, put a rollercoaster on it ect. It's their land, their choice.
My folks have fantastic living conditions for their livestock. Multiple pastures for the cows, pigs, and horse, a big coop for the chickens and ducks to stay in at night (they're free range during the day.)
It does. I treat them with kindness and care even as I cut the meat from their bones.
Boohoo. Also the livestock live on renewable resources. Mostly grain and the plant matter left behind. Crops never go to waste. So the animals eat grain we grow, fuck, birth, eat more stuff we grow, get slaughtered, the breeders get to live and eat and fuck some more in this circle of life.
Given my family's history, I will probably still be built like a 6' tall lumberjack. Maybe bad knees like my dad since he done meaningful work his whole life, but I won't need to worry about that for another 35 years.
HyperWoof
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
"That makes no difference in a human's right to live. Your viewpoint on this is definitely in the minority, and is downright frightening."
All humans except for ones deemed too dangerous to live have a right to life. I am not talking about their right to live I am talking about their value. I have made that pretty clear and i'm assuming you are just attempting to strawman my argument. Once again i'll go back to my train model. You see the family man and the vagrant on the train tracks who do you save? 99.9% of mentally stable people are going to save the family man.
They are equal in their right to live, at least. As I mentioned, a rat might have a lesser level of sentience than a bear, but that's speculation. Crop deaths are unavoidable and unfortunate. We'd be for finding ways to stop them if it were possible. But more crop deaths occur growing crops to feed to animals, which we then kill, so if you care about crop deaths, you'd still want to go vegan. I don't see how ants are relevant.
We're not discussing the pros and cons of crop fields, only that hundreds and if not thousands of rats and other small rodents die for each acre of field to be tilled. Why does nobody care about them? Rats are incredibly intelligent. So why do vegans freak out about the tiny fraction of deer and bear that hunters kill if a rats value is the same as one of them? You'd think they would be lining up at farms to protest tilling fields???
But they don't.....because all life isn't worth the same
Probably if you don't have a good reason to, though while they are intelligent, I don't think their level of intelligence is quite on par with an animal. I don't think I ever said all life was equal, just that they have a right to live and what we do to animals is unjustified.
You are certainly implying all life is equal, unless it's inconvenient to your causes of course
They might if they were starved. You also forget to mention that MOST of the pigs didn't! That still doesn't change that what's happening in the video is extremely cruel and abusive. Picking at details won't change that.
They were fasted for 24 hours. That's not starved. You should try reading some of your own sources.
And yeah most of the pigs didn't because the gas is unpleasant dumb dumb, that's the whole point of the study. But read the part about how the pigs kept eating when exposed to the gas and ONLY left after the gas started causing them to hyperventilate. The pain wasn't a large factor, it was because it was affecting their breathing ability.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
I had a seafood dish last night, and I thought it was the bee's knees. I am going pescetarian with occasional eggs from trusted farmers that I have actually inquired to about their product and how it is raised.
If any vegetarian has an issue with that compromise, then that constitutes the sort of all-or-nothing thinking that has held them back since Pythagoras was alive.
If any vegetarian has an issue with that compromise, then that constitutes the sort of all-or-nothing thinking that has held them back since Pythagoras was alive.
FeralLovin'
Citizen of Zooville
Never said it did.
Get your own land, slap a sign on it with a picture of some brocolli and say "livestock free."
I don't care where everyone gets their meat from. That's their problem.
My freezer and stomach beg to differ.
Can't grow ground beef out of the dirt, so that's why we grow them together.
It is too. I complement them on how well they've grown and take care to not cut myself in the process.
No business at all. My folks are more than happy to share what they have if anybody helps during any part of the process. I'm a stones throw away with a strong back and 1 dog that knows a bit of herding, so my freezer is usually pretty full.
It tastes good and the alternative tastes bad. Simple as that. And like you said, if my doc tells me to lay off of the meat, I'll do so. Until then, I'm going to continue enjoying my diet and lifestyle and if anyone gets rubbed the wrong way about that, that's their burden to shoulder, not mine.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
In the spirit of open-mindedness, I decided to give tofu by itself another chance.
The last time I tried it, I tried the extra firm, took one bite, and threw it out because it tasted like construction material. The reason why I thought that extra-firm tofu tasted like construction material is that extra-firm tofu tastes like construction material, full stop.
The silken variety is actually more approachable, and I can fathom the possibility of having it again, even by itself. The reason why silken tofu tastes better than extra-firm tofu is that silken tofu tastes better than extra-firm tofu, full stop.
While I was shopping for it, I found some tofu-based shredded cheese, and I am willing to try it in the future to go on top of my pasta dishes.
The last time I tried it, I tried the extra firm, took one bite, and threw it out because it tasted like construction material. The reason why I thought that extra-firm tofu tasted like construction material is that extra-firm tofu tastes like construction material, full stop.
The silken variety is actually more approachable, and I can fathom the possibility of having it again, even by itself. The reason why silken tofu tastes better than extra-firm tofu is that silken tofu tastes better than extra-firm tofu, full stop.
While I was shopping for it, I found some tofu-based shredded cheese, and I am willing to try it in the future to go on top of my pasta dishes.
T
Tailo
Guest
I think that's a commendable development.
My dog will join you by the way.
The animal based part of his nutrition has consisted of molluscs, fish and poultry in the last years with only few exceptions. I have pledged to pay more attention to where his food comes from in another thread some time ago and having done my subsequent research in shops I've got to say that it is easier to get vegan dog food which he likes than dog food made of fowl with good living conditions. Most of his food isn't actually dog food, but I like to have a designated dog food component in his menu to make sure he gets all the nutrients dogs need, and that component will be vegan then. @SkawdtDawg's experience with vegan dog food is motivating in that respect, too.
T
Tailo
Guest
I use tofu cut into small cubicles fried together with potatoes and vegetables in a pan. I've never been a fan of large slices of tofu on their own, but as an ingredient in a mix it's good. I also like tofu how it is served in Chinese restaurants. I have no idea what they do with it—the result is quite different from what I get in the pan. Maybe it's the difference between firm and silken tofu you speak of?
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Maybe, but I have found that the extra-firm tastes like construction material, and the reason why is that it tastes like construction material. This is an uncontrovertable fact. It is a subjective experience that is not going to change.
The difference with the silken variety is like night and day.
Your agreement that a cow is not equal to a dog or a dog is not equal to a human surprises me because you are making a statement saying that in effect humans are superior, of greater value. You might be a little intelligent after all.
If I had said "Just because we can't avoid all harm, we should just cause the maximum amount of harm" then it would be insane. What is insane is that you have a bad habit of changing what a person has actually said. What is insane is that you say what veganism is by definition and then alter the definition to suit your argument. Just because you can not counter the point effectively do not twist what others say.
Refference - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vegan
Definition of vegan vegan noun
https://www.merriam-webster.com/login
: a strict vegetarian who consumes no food (such as meat, eggs, or dairy products) that comes from animals also
: one who abstains from using animal products (such as leather)
Nice attempt at using my own words in your twisted answer. You just proved what I said - Thank you.
The contradiction in their message is obvious to everybody but vegans. Precisely and unarguably true.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
@SkawdtDawg
Maybe it does constitute minutiae, but that is what you get for getting discrediting someone else confused supporting your own views. You create a situation where your entire case is based on demonstrating that the other is not really an informed participant in the discussion, so even when that person is actually right, it becomes difficult for you to acknowledge that that is the case.
As a matter of fact, a 24 hour fast is not really uncomfortable, and the newest diet fad is based on intermittent fasting. While not really workable for people that have dangerous blood sugar regulation problems, it is actually a very fun and easy diet to follow. While it takes a little bit of getting used to, it is not really uncomfortable for you to go 24 hours without food. Actually, if you eat dinner on Thursday at 7 p.m. and then eat your next breakfast on Saturday, at 7 a.m., it really comes to 36 hours. If you do not have any serious blood sugar regulation problems stopping you from doing it, then the fasting periods can actually be quite amazingly soothing. Spending a while focusing on a hobby or reading a book without the distraction of something burbling its way through your stomach is really quite restful if you have learned that you will get something to eat again before you have reached a point of genuine hunger.
Some minutiae just ought to be let go of altogether.
Maybe it does constitute minutiae, but that is what you get for getting discrediting someone else confused supporting your own views. You create a situation where your entire case is based on demonstrating that the other is not really an informed participant in the discussion, so even when that person is actually right, it becomes difficult for you to acknowledge that that is the case.
As a matter of fact, a 24 hour fast is not really uncomfortable, and the newest diet fad is based on intermittent fasting. While not really workable for people that have dangerous blood sugar regulation problems, it is actually a very fun and easy diet to follow. While it takes a little bit of getting used to, it is not really uncomfortable for you to go 24 hours without food. Actually, if you eat dinner on Thursday at 7 p.m. and then eat your next breakfast on Saturday, at 7 a.m., it really comes to 36 hours. If you do not have any serious blood sugar regulation problems stopping you from doing it, then the fasting periods can actually be quite amazingly soothing. Spending a while focusing on a hobby or reading a book without the distraction of something burbling its way through your stomach is really quite restful if you have learned that you will get something to eat again before you have reached a point of genuine hunger.
Some minutiae just ought to be let go of altogether.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
They still have an APPETITE. You always have an appetite unless you are either sick or have eaten way too much, at which point you may as well be sick. If you have always eaten to the point that you would not enjoy having more to eat, then my opinion is that you have been eating yourself sick. You really should not eat to such a point that you have taken the joy out of eating. If you eat a reasonable meal and you feel like you could eat more, then great: do so at your next meal and then the meal after that. There will always be more meals unless you have fallen on seriously hard times.
You are not really hungry until the point that you have started getting hunger contractions. Now, the reason why you should try intermittent fasting comes down to hunger contractions. When you put a modest amount of food into your body after you have started having hunger contractions, which start at between 12 and 24 hours after your last meal (depending on how much you last ate), then even foods that you usually find to be bland taste like an explosion of flavor. It's like the 4th of July or Cinco de Mayo just happened in your mouth. Foods with even stronger flavors are actually almost too much.
However, my experience is that just ONE period of intermittent fasting, on rare occasions, helps improve my quality of life. It reminds me of what hunger really feels like, so I no longer believe that I am hungry just because I have the very different feeling of a sense of appetite. In fact, it helps me remember that, when I eat to a point of losing my appetite, I really feel kind of sick, not really all that satisfied. If I have an appetite, that is really a very positive feeling, and it means that I am feeling good and emotionally well-adjusted.
While this is not even really tangential to the OP, it's really good stuff to know.
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FeralLovin'
Citizen of Zooville
We want meat. We kill the animal for it. There's no consequence in that, unless too much meat in my freezer is a consequence, then that's a burden I'll have to live with, I guess.
Typically happens when I'm helping butcher.
We raise animals to eat. If we wanted to eat just vegies, we'd grow just them. But we don't, because we want meat. See? Simple.
And they got to live.
HyperWoof
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
"Okay, so if all humans have the same right to life, then what relevance does that have to other animals, which also have a right to life? Their value to YOU has no bearing on THEIR right to life. The train question is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with whether animals have a right to live. It's just a red herring. Nice try, I was not strawmanning you."
You keep saying "right to life" as if it is relevant at all to this conversation, an animals worth has NOTHING to do with it. And it's not their worth to me, it's their worth to society and human reason.
"Who says no one cares about the small animals that die in crop deaths? More of them die when you eat meat because more crops have to be grown to feed the animals. What can be done about the crop deaths? If we don't till fields, how is anyone going to eat?"
I love it how when something goes against your agenda, there is nothing that should get in the way of your ideals. But when it's animals dying for your agendas gain it's "well, nothing we can do about it oh well"
You can avoid large industrial machines used to prepare soil for planting, you could rely solely on greenhouses, spend vast amounts of time with relocation efforts before working the fields....
Not that i'm suggesting anything of the sort, but if you actually believed all animals are equal then you're horribly inconsistent in your beliefs.
Wrong. I don't think all life is equal, only that animals have a right to live that exceeds their taste. It sounds like animals having a right to live is inconvenient to your lifestyle.
I have been saying all life isn't equal this whole time and you have fought me every time I said. What changed? Did you actually think about it for more than 30 seconds?
If you hadn't eaten in 24 hours, I think you would be pretty darn hungry and desperate for food! Not starved? Good grief. Also, why don't you stop insulting me and show some respect? So far I've been respectful to you. I'm amazed you're still so fixated on a point which has no bearing on if gassing pigs is humane or not. It's obviously unpleasant, harmful, and not humane. Even if the carbon dioxide gas caused no pain, the hyperventilation and panic caused is bad enough on its own. You're not going to win this one.
I don't have much respect for you because you do nothing by intentionally twist my words, you're incredibly inconsistent with your beliefs and you argue in poor faith. I point out the flaw in your source and you resort to "this animal hasn't eaten in 24 hours which isn't incredibly abnormal for the species, but i'm going to pretend to believe that that will make a pig put itself through living hell to get a fucking apple" Pigs are more intelligent than dogs, stop playing the fool.
SigmaTheZeta
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
My favorite thing to have to eat after I have fasted just to the point of getting my first hunger contractions is a creamy mushroom risotto. I choose risotto because, in my experience, well-cooked rice is the best possible thing to put on an empty stomach. Rice doesn't get more well-cooked than risotto, and it tastes really good if you are already feeling hungry enough to eat the world.
Here is a vegan recipe!
lovingitvegan.com
It tastes so good, it will turn you gay.
Here is a vegan recipe!
Creamy Vegan Mushroom Risotto
This vegan mushroom risotto is creamy and rich and packed with mushroom flavor. It's really easy to make and makes a perfect savory entrée.
lovingitvegan.com
It tastes so good, it will turn you gay.
Yes you just twisted the definition by bringing in a definition from the vegan society where of course it is going to say the words that you are using. Whereas the definition I used is from a true source of definitions, The Merriam-Webster dictionary.
Your definition in your quote is biased to play down the true meaning of being a vegan. Because by saying the words as far as is possible and practicable the vegan society can justify the use of animal products that would otherwise make life difficult.
You said neither definition is incorrect WRONG the definition you provided is not recognized by any authority, it is only the words presented by the vegan society.
How is it relevant? AGAIN - The contradiction in their message is obvious to everybody but vegans.
There are no contradictions????? Really?? To you the definition of vegan by Merriam-Webster is the same as the source you used???? You don't see the difference??? And you don't see this as twisting someone's words?????
I don't think anyone can be 100% vegan by the definition of vegan. To me it's almost the same as the christian argument. Making oneself out to be morally superior. That just does not work because everyone is with fault.
HyperWoof
Esteemed Citizen of ZV
Like I said, inconsistent.
Rats rank high on both sentience and intelligence. So there's more to it than sentience and intelligence, I want to hear what it is
T
Tailo
Guest
Arguing about definitions is futile. One just has to know what definitions the other persons in the discussion use in order to understand what they mean. That's their actual message, not what one finds in a dictionary.
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Comfortzone
Zooville Settler
Heated thread eh?
FeralLovin'
Citizen of Zooville
Darn, how will I ever live with myself /s