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Genuine question need help

Not to contradict you, but I don't believe there's a significant difference in the risk of pseudo-pregnancy between intact and OSS bitches. Progesterone is mainly produced by the ovarian follicle (corpus luteum) after ovulation at the times relevant to developing pseudo-pregnancy., the levels should be pretty well the same for intact vs OSS.
I also don't believe OSS will significantly decrease the likelihood of mammary tumors.
It's been suggested that repeated pseudo-pregnancy could increase the likelihood of mammary tumors, but I don't have good data on that.

If you have sources telling otherwise, let me know, I'd be very interested.
 
Not to contradict you, but I don't believe there's a significant difference in the risk of pseudo-pregnancy between intact and OSS bitches. Progesterone is mainly produced by the ovarian follicle (corpus luteum) after ovulation at the times relevant to developing pseudo-pregnancy., the levels should be pretty well the same for intact vs OSS.
I also don't believe OSS will significantly decrease the likelihood of mammary tumors.
It's been suggested that repeated pseudo-pregnancy could increase the likelihood of mammary tumors, but I don't have good data on that.

If you have sources telling otherwise, let me know, I'd be very interested.

Here is a research document on mammary tumors in dogs.

The TLDR is that if a dog is a mixed breed there is a higher risk, if the dog has mixed diet including table scraps there is a higher risk. The important factor for OSS is that bitches that have been pregnant have a higher risk than most. Which is sort of the old school of letting a bitch grow up have pups and then spay. The OSS reverses the idea of removing the hormones once the dog is grown but prevents pregnancy.

The paper notes that dogs with repeated false pregnancies are more prone to tumors. I suspect that uterus interaction with the ovaries when pregnant also raises progesterone levels for longer. Which is one factor OSS reduces.

Unfortunately the data can't determine the effect of OSS and false pregnancy as the data does not recognise a partial spay.

Nearly 400 dogs over 3 years in two cities. Average age of dogs was 4, average age of dogs with tumors was 8.

This is similar data to other studies I have read but OSS is still rather new. My local Vet who did my girl had never done one but the clinic that is local that does do it has a 5 months waiting list for elective surgery and could not accept non locals during Covid.

The local Vet was intrigued by me asking for it and read research papers before doing it. He commented that OSS may soon be the norm for managing dogs.

I had been looking at papers for about 4 years after my previous Dane X suffered incontinence and cruciate ligament damage and my Vet immediately stated desexed female problems. He was the one to desex with out discussing the problems I would face in 10 years. The current procedure for cruciate ligament damage is to split the femur and realign the ligaments. a $15k surgery on a 10 year old great dane X, not something I wanted to put her through. The simple idea of desexing caused many problems later in life.
 

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The local Vet was intrigued by me asking for it and read research papers before doing it.
Odd, isn't it?
And somehow sad they are surprised someone has done his homework propperly.

One would think people would try to get as much information as possible before deciding to perform a non essential surgery. Yet... people adhere to what is "tredy" or "norm" without asking for more
 
Odd, isn't it?
And somehow sad they are surprised someone has done his homework propperly.

One would think people would try to get as much information as possible before deciding to perform a non essential surgery. Yet... people adhere to what is "tredy" or "norm" without asking for more
It is a mindset that what is standard is correct.

With my previous girl, research said that late desexing was better than early especially with big dogs. So I tried to beat the system by doing research. 10 years later the Vet that did the desexing is telling me that the problems my girl is having is normal for desexed dogs.

There is just an acceptance that all the damage done is for the good of everyone.
 
False pregnancies happen all the time. My Chihuahua went through it twice, once before once after she was fixed.
 
Here is a research document on mammary tumors in dogs.
Thanks for that, it's a very interesting read. Not too often you see people actually come up with studies! Now I don't want to threadjack, but I have to say I have a very different take-away then you. I think you're basing your conclusion on the numbers coming out in table 2 (the number of dogs with vs without tumors in the different risk factor classes), which are rather different then the results of their statistical analysis in table 3 (whether or not those risk factors are actually statistically significant).

The study looked at 8 variables in a population of dogs in specific geographic areas (Brazil) to see if they could determine if they were significant risk factors to the occurrence of mammary tumors. The 3 factors they found to be statistically significant in this specific case were:
-age: the older the dog, the more likely to have a tumor.
-being "unspayed": they specify a significant difference in spaying before 3rd estrous cycle vs after, but also state that a similar relationship wasn't observed in some other studies.
-being overweight: fatter dogs were more likely to have tumors.

The factors they were unable to demonstrate to be significant in their analysis (I'd point out this doesn't mean these factors are not significant, just that their study wasn't "good enough" to show it) were:
- mixed breed vs pure breed (they didn't look at specific breeds and note tumors are known to be more frequent in certain breeds)
- diet: though they didn't show diet to be a significant cause directly, They note that 80% of the obese dogs in the study were fed a home diet, suggesting nutrition could contribute to other factors that are significant like obesity.
- contraceptive use, history of false pregnancy and history of having given birth were actually NOT found to be statistically significant factors in their analysis (despite the numbers in table 2 really looking like they were, there's like 2-2.5x more tumors in those groups). They unfortunately offer very little information on the matter in their discussion and point out that other studies have had different results.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in statistics to understand why table 2 and table 3 are so different, but my guess is that 1. the overall population in the study is fairly small, 2. the distribution in some of the categories is really skewed (like there's 7% of the dogs on contraceptives vs 93% not on them). Those 2 things would also explain why the confidence intervals are so large.
If you look at "being unspayed" in table 3, the odds ratio suggests you're 9.3x more likely then spayed individuals of having a tumor. The 95% confidence interval suggests that if you did the same study 100 times (picked same number of dogs with the same criteria etc), then 95 times out of 100 that odds ratio would be between 3.4-25. It's a huge gap, but it's basically always more likely, therefore statistically significant according to their model.
Compare that to having a history of false pregnancies. This specific study has an odds ratio close to 1 (so just as likely to get tumors one way or the other), but if you did the same study a bunch of times, sometimes you'd be half as likely to get tumors, sometimes you'd be twice as likely. If you were to do a stronger study, maybe using a larger number of dogs, you might narrow that interval down to something more conclusive.

I still believe that OSS will NOT reduce the risk of mammary tumors or false pregnancies in dogs. I'll grant you that if gestation contributes to the likeliness of getting these tumors, OSS would prevent that from happening, but OSS vs "intact and not having puppies" would be the same.
 
I still believe that OSS will NOT reduce the risk of mammary tumors or false pregnancies in dogs. I'll grant you that if gestation contributes to the likeliness of getting these tumors, OSS would prevent that from happening, but OSS vs "intact and not having puppies" would be the same.

Unfortunately having studied statics you can manipulate the data any way you want. So I have to agree that the various data and statistics do wander.

The real problem is that OSS is so new that reliable and discreet data is very low. I agree that the tumor ratio is completely unproven and only referenced in anecdotes.

So I am going to see how my girl goes. Though in reality I need a target number to compare too for real effect.
 
I'm sure your girl will do fine. She's obviously got someone who cares a lot looking over her and at the end of the day that's what's most important.

It's actually hard to find people who've gone through with OSS for their girl. Could I ask you what your experience has been? anything different after vs before?
 
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