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Do trained dogs have free will?

Reconscope

Reconscope

Supreme Citizen of ZV
Do they have the option is disobey training if they needed too? Example: police dogs ordered to bite someone can they refuse it or do they always just do it? Where you are friendly with said k9 unit dog and if someone ordered him to bite you will they obey 100%? Hypothetical scenario ofc
 
interesting thought.....
its probably a question of conditioning.....do WE even have real free will?
:unsure:
 
for sure I think for the most part we aim n succeed for the most part in that pursuit of free will...
as much as we are 'allowed' by the few that call the shots.
I guess a k9 would/could disobey a command to bite if he wished.....I wonder.....
 
It depends on what trianing we are talking about. If military dogs ever refuse an order they have the potential of being pretty much let go. Unfortunately that strict of training has draw backs because when a canine training unit retires they have adoption events if their trainees does not adopt them, many if the dogs are a bit disconnected from society and social interactions it is quite sad..I use to help the recovery of some dogs retired from military they acted different than your normal shelter dog.
 
pupwhoshaggedme said:
It depends on what trianing we are talking about. If military dogs ever refuse an order they have the potential of being pretty much let go. Unfortunately that strict of training has draw backs because when a canine training unit retires they have adoption events if their trainees does not adopt them, many if the dogs are a bit disconnected from society and social interactions it is quite sad..I use to help the recovery of some dogs retired from military they acted different than your normal shelter dog.
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So wait thats a no? I dont know for sure.
 
BarkyPup said:
ive always wondered also do dogs see in colour?
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They have a muted pallet compared to us. They have just blue and yellow cones, where we have blue yellow and red, and their rod to cone ratio is more heavily rod weighted so they see about 6 times less color saturation as we do. Of course color is a completely subjective perception to begin with.
 
Reconscope said:
Do they have the option is disobey training if they needed too? Example: police dogs ordered to bite someone can they refuse it or do they always just do it? Where you are friendly with said k9 unit dog and if someone ordered him to bite you will they obey 100%? Hypothetical scenario ofc
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Next time you have to pee, try urinating where you sit without getting up, assuming you are alone. You may feel free to put a towel under you to absorb some of it. The thing is, even if you can do it, it's noticeably harder to do than just going to the toilet. The point is, it's always a struggle to overcome conditioning, especially if it happened early in your life, but you sort of can, with difficulty. The same is true with dogs, I think, but their reasons are likely to be different from those of a human. For instance, they might disobey conditioning to go running after a rabbit...because they are dogs. Dogs do that.
 
SigmatoZeta said:
Next time you have to pee, try urinating where you sit without getting up, assuming you are alone. You may feel free to put a towel under you to absorb some of it. The thing is, even if you can do it, it's noticeably harder to do than just going to the toilet. The point is, it's always a struggle to overcome conditioning, especially if it happened early in your life, but you sort of can, with difficulty. The same is true with dogs, I think, but their reasons are likely to be different from those of a human. For instance, they might disobey conditioning to go running after a rabbit...because they are dogs. Dogs do that.
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Like how in walking dead where that one guy that says "you know how hard it is to pee on yourself?" Thats where the illusion of free will vs conditioning happens.
 
pupwhoshaggedme said:
Yea while in service if you say attack or bite they are supposed to ....they are supposed to basically 100% obey their commanding officer
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That sucks looks like i have to take the difficult route (keeping my possible defenses at the ready) whenever i see one. You never know these days what that person is. No matter how friendly they are to me. Such a sad fate my hand would be forced if it came down to it.
 
Any such dog is useless if he/ she will not obey the handler, and is in fact dangerous. Whether the police or the soldiers are justified or no, disobedience can get someone killed. Such a dog would be destroyed at the first opportunity
 
saddlebum66 said:
Any such dog is useless if he/ she will not obey the handler, and is in fact dangerous. Whether the police or the soldiers are justified or no, disobedience can get someone killed. Such a dog would be destroyed at the first opportunity
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I think you mean free will is dangerous therefore will be destroyed for any independant thought. Even if disobedience is bad its not worth killing a life over.
 
Reconscope said:
I think you mean free will is dangerous therefore will be destroyed for any independant thought. Even if disobedience is bad its not worth killing a life over.
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I think this is a discussion for the dumpster fire thread posts only because now it's more if a political argument about wrong and rights. Just letting you guys know I'm case a moderator is around.
 
pupwhoshaggedme said:
I think this is a discussion for the dumpster fire thread posts only because now it's more if a political argument about wrong and rights. Just letting you guys know I'm case a moderator is around.
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Well its actually not argument. Im just delivering feedback how i feel disappointed animals (namely dogs here) being punished for free will.
 
My point being that someone can just as easily come on here and say how it is not dissapointing and turn it into something much bigger.....it's definitely a sensitive topic where people have clear and concise sides. Very similar to the subject of grey hound racing which is a very touchy and political esque subject just trying to protect you dude there is a spot on this site for these kinda of topics
 
pupwhoshaggedme said:
My point being that someone can just as easily come on here and say how it is not dissapointing and turn it into something much bigger.....it's definitely a sensitive topic where people have clear and concise sides. Very similar to the subject of grey hound racing which is a very touchy and political esque subject just trying to protect you dude there is a spot on this site for these kinda of topics
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Didnt know it was a massive deal.
 
Well, i actually think that training can mess the dog's will. Since they kind of move mechanically or "automatic" by having repeating the same pattern. That's why i think training is not a way to get the animal into this world and i think it's way better to actually "show the animal" (not to train actually, more than "teaching" instead) that they can be sexually active with yourself.
 
Bluephoenyx said:
Well, i actually think that training can mess the dog's will. Since they kind of move mechanically or "automatic" by having repeating the same pattern. That's why i think training is not a way to get the animal into this world and i think it's way better to actually "show the animal" (not to train actually, more than "teaching" instead) that they can be sexually active with yourself.
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Well thats a good way to look at it.
 
Simple answer is no.

Complicated answer is that no one has free will. Often our subconscious mind makes decisions before you're even aware you've made them for yourself. Outside factors can of course change your opinion, but only because your subconscious opinion has been changed by this external information. As intelligent as we like to think we are, both humans and dogs are conditioned to follow basic patters as well as societal/external expectations. Dogs and humans both seek comfort in seeking patters.

As Sam Harris puts it:
"Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control. We do not have the freedom we think we have."
 
Reconscope said:
I think you mean free will is dangerous therefore will be destroyed for any independant thought. Even if disobedience is bad its not worth killing a life over.
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That isn't what I said. YOU were talking "free will". I wasn't. A security dog is a tool, not an independent entity. It doesn't matter whether you approve or not; that dog has NO FREE WILL, until it is released from service and retired, rehabilitated or destroyed. It used to be no one thought they COULD be rehabbed. Generally they were put down at the end of their working life. At least there's been some progressive thought since then. SOME actually get a life.

You need not to put words in people's mouths. A little closer reading might make you a better debater.
 
Reconscope said:
Well thats a good way to look at it.
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Well, i try to believe that way. I mean, i don't have any studies into animal psychology and i dunno that if someone actually can fully understand an animal's psique actually (one that's not human's).
 
saddlebum66 said:
That isn't what I said. YOU were talking "free will". I wasn't. A security dog is a tool, not an independent entity. It doesn't matter whether you approve or not; that dog has NO FREE WILL, until it is released from service and retired, rehabilitated or destroyed. It used to be no one thought they COULD be rehabbed. Generally they were put down at the end of their working life. At least there's been some progressive thought since then. SOME actually get a life.

You need not to put words in people's mouths. A little closer reading might make you a better debater.
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Never put words into your mouth though. That kind of manipulation is actually pretty evil. Making a Independent mind a tool/slave for society. Honestly should be illegal.
 
Reconscope said:
Never put words into your mouth though. That kind of manipulation is actually pretty evil. Making a Independent mind a tool/slave for society. Honestly should be illegal.
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It's always sickened me studying medieval (and, well, actually as far forward as WWI) history or watching movies set in that era and seeing how it was establish and accepted tactic to target a mounted combatant's horse. All because it was the larger and easier target to bring down. An innocent animal being murdered all because it was forced into the middle of petty human squabbles.
 
dartel said:
It's always sickened me studying medieval (and, well, actually as far forward as WWI) history or watching movies set in that era and seeing how it was establish and accepted tactic to target a mounted combatant's horse. All because it was the larger and easier target to bring down. An innocent animal being murdered all because it was forced into the middle of petty human squabbles.
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Yes i dont know how they justify doing that. In any game i play i try to avoid killing the mounts (if that means anything) if its in my power ofc.
 
Reconscope said:
Never put words into your mouth though. That kind of manipulation is actually pretty evil. Making a Independent mind a tool/slave for society. Honestly should be illegal.
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A dog HAS no free will, whatever you may think. That's why they're DOGS. Like it or not Humans created them. Various breeds have specific purposes,, which is why they ARE breeds. Possibly it should be illegal to use dogs in such ways as security, but dogs generally will not be around long if we depart the planet. The tasks they are bred for are part of what gives them life.
What might survive for a while would be 35 pounds, probably yellow, flopped at the tip ears, curled tail critters, something like a dingo or a Basenji. They'll do well until something eats them. We've taught and bred them for millennia to seek US out. When they can no longer find us, they will be just another prey animal, but not smart enough to make it alone. Pretty much like most humans; they'll starve to death if they can't find a can opener.
 
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saddlebum66 said:
A dog HAS no i


A dog HAS no free will, whatever you may think. That's why they're DOGS. Like it or not Humans created them. Various breeds have specific purposes,, which is why they ARE breeds. Possibly it should be illegal to use dogs in such ways as security, but dogs generally will not be around long if we depart the planet. The tasks they are bred for are part of what gives them life.
What might survive for a while would be 35 pounds, probably yellow, flopped at the tip ears, curled tail critters, something like a dingo or a Basenji. They'll do well until something eats them. We've taught and bred them for millennia to seek US out. When they can no longer find us, they will be just another prey animal, but not smart enough to make it alone. Pretty much like most humans; they'll starve to death if they can't find a can opener.
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this thing you state makes me hope that space travel/colonization dont exist and extinction hits us 1st.
 
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