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Anti-zoo laws getting worse (how to deal with them?)

And you're right -- if AI (artificial insemination) involves dealing with animal genitalia without their "consent" (and is legal), then why is sex with animals not legal? I bet these discussions are not even raised when making new anti-zoo laws.

Yes, they are and the usual answer is to include a clause allowing licensed practitioners to perform normal husbandry practices. But that makes me a criminal even without sex because I own a stallion and "sheath cleaning" is a normal part of owning a stallion and I don't have a license.
 
Yes, they are and the usual answer is to include a clause allowing licensed practitioners to perform normal husbandry practices. But that makes me a criminal even without sex because I own a stallion and "sheath cleaning" is a normal part of owning a stallion and I don't have a license.

When an anti-zoo law is made, and an exception for "animal husbandry" is included within that law, that is discrimination because it affords legal protection to some (the AI people), but not others (to zoos), for no justifiable reason. If artificial insemination is legal, then sex with animals should also be legal. Anti-zoo laws that have an exception for artificial insemination are inconsistent.
 
The simplest reason for these unjust laws always involves and revolves around one thing: Money. Artificial Insemination makes money, where Zoophiles do it for free.
 
if you read a lot of the new laws in the US you will discover that many of them have actual clauses to remove need of proof for abuse, the simple act that was committed is enough evidence. The belief that if it happened it was abuse.
Politicians are NOT going to stand up to rights abuse for such laws, to do so labels them as supporters of bestiality, they will not do it. Thats why no matter how insane many of these new laws are they pass with no opposition.
 
Simple question - If you committed the so called offense before the law was passed can they still come after you?
Or
If I made a film at a time when there was no law can that film be used against me as evidence?
 
if you read a lot of the new laws in the US you will discover that many of them have actual clauses to remove need of proof for abuse, the simple act that was committed is enough evidence. The belief that if it happened it was abuse.
Politicians are NOT going to stand up to rights abuse for such laws, to do so labels them as supporters of bestiality, they will not do it. Thats why no matter how insane many of these new laws are they pass with no opposition.

That is why someone, or some organization, needs to fight them in court. (Something that still has not happened in the U.S., as far as I can tell). It doesn't have to be a zoo who fights it; it can be non-zoos as well. The fact that the new anti-zoo laws do not even require there to be evidence of abuse makes them even more discriminatory, unjust and unethical. There is no rational reason for these anti-zoo laws. They're similar to the anti-gay sodomy laws that existed for all those years (and still exist in some places).

As I said in another thread, abandoning the U.S. (leaving it) may be the only way to deal with these unjust laws.

knotinterested said:
Simple question - If you committed the so called offense before the law was passed can they still come after you?

In New Hampshire, before the anti-zoo law was made there, a man who had sex with his dog was arrested and charged with "animal abuse" (nonsense charge); the anti-zoo (biased) jury found him guilty and he was sent to prison. It's cases like these which show the need for some kind of "zoo legal defense".
 
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Laws cannot be made retroactive, nor can juries be instructed in such a way as to allow a post-arrest law change to affect a given case. If such has happened, it is a plain Violation of the US Constitution. I'D be consulting the ACLU in short order, myself.
 
All this pontificating is just hot air and smoke and mirrors
close your curtains, barn door etc and above all close your mouth
no matter about any law change which is NEVER going to happen
getting fed up with daydreamers on here but thank god it’s less than a handful fooling themselves

being legal doesn’t mean acceptance
 
Simple question - If you committed the so called offense before the law was passed can they still come after you?
Or
If I made a film at a time when there was no law can that film be used against me as evidence?
You'd have to defend yourself well or get a good lawyer that would be interested in a case like this to claim this was before the law. But the justice system is made to lock you up. They'll do anything they can to do it. Plus try to claim you changed the dates on the video to show it was before the law.
There also is the "statue of limitations." So if what they will consider a crime that was committed and is evident on video. If it happened after a certain number of years. They can still use it against you.


zoo50 said:
The fact that the new anti-zoo laws do not even require there to be evidence of abuse
Technically, the law the Government is passing does provide evidence. Some think it is specifically going against zoos. But honestly, nothing really shows anything is specifically saying bestiality. To me, this is only for the most serious cases of abuse, and much like their older law it claims if a person is in violation taking his act over state lines. Although. I happen to look up the older law of the PACT act, which seems like this was something that was in the law before. They just have everyone thinking this is a brand new law, when its really just giving extra detail to their current law (H.R. 5566) (compare H.R. 724 from the congress.gov site)

(4) There are certain extreme acts of animal cruelty that
appeal to a specific sexual fetish. These acts of extreme animal
cruelty are videotaped, and the resulting video tapes are
commonly referred to as ``animal crush videos''.

Wonder who the smart one was that thinks they're called "animal crush videos."

Honestly, I think if they wanted to try to outlaw ALL forms of abuse. Sex doesn't mean crushing... Unless they're meaning there's something else involved during the sexual act. *hint, hint* Necro.

I think they should be a little more specific. But it's the Government. People are brain washed not to question them.
 
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Technically, the law the Government is passing does provide evidence. Some think it is specifically going against zoos. But honestly, nothing really shows anything is specifically saying bestiality.

I was talking about laws being made at the state level (such as the new anti-zoo law in Kentucky made earlier this year, which made sex with animals a felony there).
 
All this pontificating is just hot air and smoke and mirrors
close your curtains, barn door etc and above all close your mouth
no matter about any law change which is NEVER going to happen
getting fed up with daydreamers on here but thank god it’s less than a handful fooling themselves

being legal doesn’t mean acceptance

This x1000

Zoos will NEVER. EVER. Be accepted in the USA. There will not be any repeals of any laws.

The overwhelming majority of americans believe this lifestyle is wrong. And not a single politician anywhere will ever sponsor a bill to get the laws overturned. Even IF they agreed with it. Anyone who argues otherwise is living in a dreamland. And furthermore, all you guys saying "It just takes one". Ok, cool, be that one. Start the revolution. Or stop berating others because you're just speaking in an echo chamber.
 
@Gregory, some of us are talking about gradual generational change.

What I am actually thinking of doing, with my local group, is starting with a semi-anonymous meeting, similar to the old Mattachine Society that was founded in 1950. The queers that started meeting together then didn't get together start the Stonewall Revolution an hour later. That didn't happen until 19 years later, and it had to happen in the middle of a general time of social and political upheaval.

To be clear, we didn't even play a part in creating that social and political upheaval. Maybe, in that 19 years from 1950 until 1969, the shit completely hit the fan, but that wasn't our idea. We didn't create that atmosphere. We couldn't have. We just got caught up, just like everyone else, in this awakening period in our culture. There was a sense of revolution in the air, and we just got swept along with it.

However, we were only able to strike while the iron was hot because we started those considerably more modest organizations 19 years earlier.

Wait, even AFTER Stonewall, our work wasn't done. We hadn't really done jack shit to change anybody's minds. There were still lots of gay men that were extremely pessimistic, just like you are. The majority of society still were utterly and absolutely convinced that gay men were pedophiles. If you had told the majority of gay men that there would be a time when gay men could get married and that a gay man could get taken seriously if he said that he wanted to run for POTUS, even the ones that were the most optimistic would have laughed at you and said, "maybe we should set the bar a little lower, for right now."

Well, right now, my goal is for us to get local zoophiles to start having semi-anonymous meetings similar to the old Mattachine Society. I would actually have us deliberately keep it anonymous. I would want less open zoophiles to be able to arrive, without announcing themselves, and just lurk at the periphery and see other people they knew were probably zoophiles talking together and representing themselves as ordinary and decent human beings. I would want such meetings to be an affirmation of our humanity.

That was what the Mattachine Society did that was so important, and they inspired other organizations that were more bold to start forming around them. They ignited an idea. They were really extremely conservative, themselves, if you want to know the truth. Those people had not really wanted to be a part of a major period of social change. They just wanted to meet together with likeminded people and feel like ordinary, decent human beings for a little while. If you had told them what some of the more outrageous pride marches to come were going to look like, they would have actually been appalled. They just wanted to feel like regular guys for a while.

I don't think I'm really living in a "fantasy land" if I say that we could get a group of perfectly ordinary human beings to meet together semi-anonymously in an open, not too claustrophobic public place and just see each other for what they really are, ordinary people. I think it's perfectly realistic to say that we could get two zoophiles, who are both interested in working on cars, to spend an hour talking about cars, not about animal sex.

Even if we could never really spark off a major social change, it would be worth it for some of us to meet other zoophiles somewhere and see that these people are really perfectly ordinary and okay human beings. That by itself would be humanizing, even if we never accomplished anything else for as long as we lived.

However, I would also remind you that, when society goes through major upheavals, people that are willing to organize in that kind of modest and down to earth kind of manner tend to be the ones that rise to the top. When the shit hits the fan, those kinds of people, who are just willing to meet together as civic-minded decent human beings, are the ones that come out as the winners.

It's not animal sex that make us worth saving. It's everything else about us that makes us worth saving.
 
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This x1000

Zoos will NEVER. EVER. Be accepted in the USA. There will not be any repeals of any laws.

The overwhelming majority of americans believe this lifestyle is wrong. And not a single politician anywhere will ever sponsor a bill to get the laws overturned. Even IF they agreed with it. Anyone who argues otherwise is living in a dreamland. And furthermore, all you guys saying "It just takes one". Ok, cool, be that one. Start the revolution. Or stop berating others because you're just speaking in an echo chamber.

This is a pretty pessimistic attitude. I think most people are apathetic about this issue, or are hostile towards it purely due to ignorance (or speciesism). With that being said, there is another thread about whether zoos should leave the United States and move to another country:


Just because a majority of people think something is wrong doesn't necessarily mean something should be criminalized. I think slaughtering animals is wrong, and I think that should be criminalized (it is thousands of times worse than sex with animals).

If the anti-zoo laws in the U.S. will never be repealed, then they should be challenged in court (there's a separate thread about that).
 
@Zoo50, I think that the first thing that us zoos ought to address is society's mindset toward us that goes,

"You are guilty until your guilt has been confirmed by a jury of your moral superiors."

We can start by just asserting our lawful constitutional rights as Americans and by having some pride in ourselves as Americans. In spite of the troubles that we have been through, America is still a great country that is based upon and built on a foundation of liberty and equality, and that is what we really ought to stand up for before anything else. I am not always pleased with my country, but I am never ashamed of my country. We are built on freedom. We should muscle through any force that stands between us and the realization of that. It's not just about us being zoophiles, but it's about us being Americans and proud to be American. It's our beliefs as Americans that makes people like you and me think we should stand and fight instead of selfishly hiding somewhere with our blinds drawn while others that are not as fortunate get their lives destroyed. Us being zoophiles doesn't make us feel that way, but it's the fire of patriotism in us that makes us feel that way.

It's going to have to start with affirming our most basic constitutional rights, and this is going to have to be based on us reminding ourselves and each other that we do actually have those rights like any other American citizen.
 
That why i(we=our group) is buying land(have 2 lots)

Gonna build a bitchin barn with shower stalls
Solar for heating and trough heaters.

Build me/us a little cot area. Good luck catching us then!
 
That why i(we=our group) is buying land(have 2 lots)

Gonna build a bitchin barn with shower stalls
Solar for heating and trough heaters.

Build me/us a little cot area. Good luck catching us then!
Hope that works out for you.

We feel nice and safe too. We are in an area with a very low population plus our ranch is large enough that it would be hard to come up here off the main road without being seen. I guess we just have to watch out for those drones.
 
Hope that works out for you.

We feel nice and safe too. We are in an area with a very low population plus our ranch is large enough that it would be hard to come up here off the main road without being seen. I guess we just have to watch out for those drones.
Haha, anything like that meets a 12ga or a 308.. I Acctualy might take so long deciding what nail it with that it will Probly be gone b4 I get it.
 
This is a pretty pessimistic attitude. I think most people are apathetic about this issue, or are hostile towards it purely due to ignorance (or speciesism). With that being said, there is another thread about whether zoos should leave the United States and move to another country:


Just because a majority of people think something is wrong doesn't necessarily mean something should be criminalized. I think slaughtering animals is wrong, and I think that should be criminalized (it is thousands of times worse than sex with animals).

If the anti-zoo laws in the U.S. will never be repealed, then they should be challenged in court (there's a separate thread about that).

Pessimistic, but realistic. You'd need to somehow remove the stigma, which might require a completely different culture than the one we're in now for all we know. You'd definitely need to start with the backing of multiple experts and media outlets with decent followings, and even then that might not be enough to make a shift away from moralistic ideologies. The far future things could be completely different but right now, or in the foreseeable future I don't see it being decriminalized or even remotely accepted anytime soon.

Thankfully, we all have the option of being able to keep to ourselves, stay low and not be bothered. It being a crime is one thing, but being gone after directly by the government is a totally different thing that I don't believe we're facing (at least not that i've seen). Most problems zoos face are from missteps in navigating through the lifestyle, or being a genuinely bad person.
 
@cantfit,

Cowardice is unrealistic, and I have contempt for it.

Realistic is the fact that, from the date that the Mattachine Society was first founded, in 1950, it took more than half a century for the last of the Sodomy laws to get overthrown and several more years for the fight for marriage equality to get won, but also, a lot happened between one point and the other.

1) In the 1950's, the chief way that organizations like the Mattachine Society benefited gay men was by being humanizing, actually. The truth is that even gay men did not like being reduced to just their sexuality, at least not once they had felt the sense of pride and empowerment that comes from feeling like a whole person. They had other things about them. Meeting occasionally with other gay men helped them remember that, even though they were gay, those other things about them were still more important. They realized that they needed to focus on getting careers and settling down in steady jobs. They had families. Some of them were battling mental illness. They were people first, homosexuals last. Ironically, this had a huge impact, later, on their freedom to be openly homosexual. It was very significant. They were not giving up being gay, but they were giving up the idea that being gay could really stop them from being anything else.

2) In the 1960's, gay men had actually benefited tremendously from their efforts to build themselves better lives. Even though they were not free to be who they were openly, they had improved their quality of life. They had moved up in society. Many of them were become very politically well-connected, and they knew famous people. Many of them were friends with movie stars.

3) In the 1970's, they were getting their first cultural meccas where it was not actually life-endangering or career-ending for them to come out as gay. Most Americans, throughout most of the 1970's, still believed that the majority of gay men were pedophiles, even more than 30 years after the Mattachine Society was founded and the idea of gay rights activism had first begun.

4) The community then was hit by the AIDS Crisis. This was partly a setback for them, and it was partly also an important wake-up call to them that it couldn't be all about being free and being able to do what they choose. It was a reminder that it had to also be about being responsible and being civic-minded. In the end, what they learned from this crisis and their willingness to learn from this crisis ultimately helped improve their credibility, in the long-run.

There were intervening developments in that half a century.

If you told me we were probably half a century out from overturning all of the anti-zoophilia laws, then I would tell you that you are actually right. It can't just be about that, then. It has to be about everything else.

It has to also be about us developing a strong mentoring culture. Look at the world around you, and by that, I mean look at the zoophile community around you. There are kids running around demanding to owners, "Will you let me suck on your dog's dick?" and it's not that they are horrible people because of this. It's because they are kids that have nobody really there trying to mentor them and give them direction without crushing their hearts and telling them they are just plain bad.

The place where we are at, right at this moment, is dealing with exactly the things you pointed out, I quote you, "Most problems zoos face are from missteps in navigating through the lifestyle." Here is reality: every time they do, that increases the chance that the law is going to come after you!

But scolding them alone is not going to work. Telling them that they have a right to be better and to be seen as better is going to work. Read the document originally published by the Mattachine Society, "Revolt of the Homosexual."


They are honest about the shortcomings of the gay community. I quote the Mattachine Society, in their own words, "I do not see, therefore, any capacity to revolt in “gay society.” It is a destructive sub-culture, producing corps of clean-shaven, fresh-scented zombies who eat, sleep, walk, talk, and are dead. It is a sub-culture in which sex is substituted for real personal relations. As a sub-culture it produces nothing of value."

It was not the fact that they were criticizing that made the difference, but it was the reason why they were criticizing that made the difference. They were telling these people that they deserved better and that it was pathetic that they would not wake up and realize they deserved better.

If you want to start with "realistic," then let's start with getting some of these kids to think of themselves as people with jobs that have room in their homes to own dogs. Tell them they deserve to believe that that could be them, not lost individuals that are out there endangering you and embarrassing you. Give them their first scent of an idea that they could actually live decent lives, where they don't have to pursue a hopeless endeavor to cut their sexuality out of themselves in order to be human beings that can be defined by something besides their sexuality.

It may take half a century for us to produce a generation that can succeed at overthrowing the anti-zoophile laws if we ever truly do produce a generation that can succeed at overthrowing the anti-zoophile laws, but I intend to stay around another half a century and then live for a while longer in order to peacefully enjoy it and to laugh.

Zoophile pride must start with young zoophiles believing they have a right to have good careers and to hold down steady jobs and provide safe soundproofed homes in safe neighborhoods in which to keep their animals. They must not only believe that this is a good idea, but they must believe they should be willing to stand up and fight for it passionately and with a sense of revolution, no matter what obstacles or hindrances get thrown in their way. It has to start there.
 
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@cantfit,


Cowardice is unrealistic, and I have contempt for it.....


If you told me we were probably half a century out from overturning all of the anti-zoophilia laws, then I would tell you that you are actually right. It can't just be about that, then. It has to be about everything else.

The place where we are at, right at this moment, is dealing with exactly the things you pointed out, I quote you, "Most problems zoos face are from missteps in navigating through the lifestyle." Here is reality: every time they do, that increases the chance that the law is going to come after you!

- It's not being cowardly, it's being smart. At the end of the day, why should an individual risk their life to change something that they could've been quiet about keeping the ability to appreciate it for themselves.

- I couldn't say if it's 50, or even 100 years away from happening. I couldn't say if reversal in law would ever happen for that matter. However, I am saying that there will be key things that will challenge certain beliefs in the future with technologies like Virtual/Augmented reality and new arguments brought to the table that could either be beneficial to zoos, or make everything significantly worse.

- I would say that's half true, as missteps also include understanding how to know who you should keep around you, and even further, attempting to have friends, make content, have a well known persona within the community are all things that are high risk for said misstep. However, like I said previously, if you completely keep to yourself you would literally never have anything to worry about with the understanding that it's very taboo. As an individual, you're not sought after directly. Imagine being single, having good work that allows you to live out of the city and you never got involved in the community aspects of it. You'd never have a problem.

In regards to the rest of what you said, I do understand what you're saying. But, my entire point is, zoo being as taboo as it is..it hangs on a thread. The culture within society is simply not ready to be accepting to zoos, which SHOULD be understood so you don't put yourself, your animals and your lively hood in general in harms way. There is potential for things to change, of course, but as of now I simply don't see it.

Nevertheless, I hope that either change does come and it's more accepted legally, regardless if it's looked down upon or not, because I would really like the ability for genuine zoos to be protected, and animal rapists/sadists to be put in jail and not have them lumped together.. And even if that never happens, I hope the internet remains or further transforms back to being even more free, and moral authoritarianism never causes the government to truly go after zoos.
 
Your insistence upon trying to drive others to live in secrecy constitutes a level of absolute ignorance of the human race.

Coming out en masse led to the emancipation of the LGBT community precisely because of one of the realities of the human race.

People are afraid of groups of people among them that live in secrecy. People are afraid of the hermit at the edge of town that never speaks with anybody. They do not just view secrecy with mistrust, but they view it with mortal terror.

Promoting a culture of cowardice is just going to lead to more secretive behavior among zoophiles and thereby kindle more paranoid fear among others in society.

If you cannot help but to be a coward because you, as an individual, are a pathetic person, then that is merely contemptible. Spreading your cowardice to others ultimately will do you a disservice.

This constitutes the same principle as the fact that you should never run away from a dog.

The way that it works is precisely the same in principle.
 
- It's not being cowardly, it's being smart. At the end of the day, why should an individual risk their life to change something that they could've been quiet about keeping the ability to appreciate it for themselves.

- I couldn't say if it's 50, or even 100 years away from happening. I couldn't say if reversal in law would ever happen for that matter. However, I am saying that there will be key things that will challenge certain beliefs in the future with technologies like Virtual/Augmented reality and new arguments brought to the table that could either be beneficial to zoos, or make everything significantly worse.

- I would say that's half true, as missteps also include understanding how to know who you should keep around you, and even further, attempting to have friends, make content, have a well known persona within the community are all things that are high risk for said misstep. However, like I said previously, if you completely keep to yourself you would literally never have anything to worry about with the understanding that it's very taboo. As an individual, you're not sought after directly. Imagine being single, having good work that allows you to live out of the city and you never got involved in the community aspects of it. You'd never have a problem.

In regards to the rest of what you said, I do understand what you're saying. But, my entire point is, zoo being as taboo as it is..it hangs on a thread. The culture within society is simply not ready to be accepting to zoos, which SHOULD be understood so you don't put yourself, your animals and your lively hood in general in harms way. There is potential for things to change, of course, but as of now I simply don't see it.

Nevertheless, I hope that either change does come and it's more accepted legally, regardless if it's looked down upon or not, because I would really like the ability for genuine zoos to be protected, and animal rapists/sadists to be put in jail and not have them lumped together.. And even if that never happens, I hope the internet remains or further transforms back to being even more free, and moral authoritarianism never causes the government to truly go after zoos.

There is a concern though: what if the anti-zoo laws become so bad that the government(s) do start hunting down zoos? Right now, as you said, the laws exist, but are mainly enforced only if people are caught. What if the laws get so bad that zoos start getting hunted down, and zoo websites can no longer exist? Certainly, if everyone keeps hiding, the only voices that will be heard (in the government) will be those of the bigoted anti-zoos, and the anti-zoos will keep getting their way.

The laws have really deteriorated in the United States in the past 15 years (mainly due to anti-zoo activism), and if things keep happening the way they're happening, it's only going to get worse.

So I somewhat agree with SigmatoZeta that something needs to be done, in terms of activism. However, the best people to be activists are non-zoos with no animals (in other words, non-zoos who sympathize with zoos). The reason for this is that zoos have too much to lose. An analogous situation would be straight people who sympathize with gay people.

You said you hope zoo gets more accepted legally -- how is that going to happen if everyone is hiding? On the other hand, I do see the benefit to hiding, as it ensures the safety of one's animals. Selfishly hiding has benefits (such as benefiting one's own safety and security), but it probably won't improve the current societal situation, or the legal situation.

Also, you mentioned several ways to "keep a low profile" -- do you think writing a pro-zoo blog on a major blogging platform (like Tumblr) is too risky?
 
@Zoo50

I would also discuss some of the main problems with zoophile culture. We need young zoophiles themselves to start understanding what situations they can get in that can actually ruin them or which are genuinely beneath them. They need to start thinking about whether or not they should really feel safe around animal prostitution, for instance.
 
There is a concern though: what if the anti-zoo laws become so bad that the government(s) do start hunting down zoos? Right now, as you said, the laws exist, but are mainly enforced only if people are caught. What if the laws get so bad that zoos start getting hunted down, and zoo websites can no longer exist? Certainly, if everyone keeps hiding, the only voices that will be heard (in the government) will be those of the bigoted anti-zoos, and the anti-zoos will keep getting their way.

The laws have really deteriorated in the United States in the past 15 years (mainly due to anti-zoo activism), and if things keep happening the way they're happening, it's only going to get worse.

So I somewhat agree with SigmatoZeta that something needs to be done, in terms of activism. However, the best people to be activists are non-zoos with no animals (in other words, non-zoos who sympathize with zoos). The reason for this is that zoos have too much to lose. An analogous situation would be straight people who sympathize with gay people.

You said you hope zoo gets more accepted legally -- how is that going to happen if everyone is hiding? On the other hand, I do see the benefit to hiding, as it ensures the safety of one's animals. Selfishly hiding has benefits (such as benefiting one's own safety and security), but it probably won't improve the current societal situation, or the legal situation.

Also, you mentioned several ways to "keep a low profile" -- do you think writing a pro-zoo blog on a major blogging platform (like Tumblr) is too risky?


That's a big concern of mine that I dwell on all the time. I absolutely think things could get much worse, of course. However, I don't think it's really going to be a gradual thing. In my opinion, most people forget about zoos, until they hear about/read about it. From what i've seen, it's usually self-righteous people that get a big dick about moralism after a major story from a source they follow. So, I think one of the quickest ways you can end up having government coming after you, is riling people up by trying to play activist at the wrong time.

I also, agree, something needs to be done. But, i'm going to be the first to admit that most things i've heard simply wont work, and I can't think of something that COULD work, in the USA, in the culture of the USA in 2019, as well as into the foreseeable future. I think there are a lot of people who want this change, however I believe those who could make a coherent argument on the subject would be either non-zoos who sympathize like you said (which would be hard to find without a lot of effort, and risk), OR, the zoos who can put forth a really solid argument and get a group together who are ready and willing to actually protest. The problem that i've seen being in this community for a very long time,is that it seems like the zoos that we need to attempt this have the most to lose, as they're professionals, academics, people with families. We're talking people who are usually well sorted who hide this sort of thing. But, what I usually see are the type of zoos who you wouldn't to want to make that argument for you, being the ones who are the loudest on outlets like forums, or social media..and end up getting themselves in a lot of life trouble. In turn, that allows for us to continue to be shunned into inevitable doom.(I'll also add that if there was coherently organized protest that I saw the ability to actually have traction, I would absolutely join that fight.)

I've already answered this actually.
I'm actually hopeful, well maybe 50/50. However, I DO think there will never be a point and time where the federal government will start actively going after all zoos. Why? Because that is severely against the constitution (THANK GOD), and would basically require the USA to already be in a very terrible state. If the government started going after people and rounding up 100's of people involved in communities like this, unfortunately zoo wouldn't be anywhere near the only taboo and/or "illegal" thing that they would be actively going after. So to me, that's a GOOD thing.

In my version of the 50/50, it's either laws themselves are going to get worse to where zoos who are still involved in the community take more and more risk in regards to their own lives. (but that's with the government not actually going after people, this is just whenever people get caught). OR, the most ideal, and beautiful thing that could happen, is the future challenging morality all together.

For instance, imagine we're in the year 2050, and we have something like full-immersion virtual reality, and people have the ability of practically creating any type of environment they want to. Hell, what if there's a second life VR, the population rises, WAY more people get involved in something like FIVR. Well, what happens when something like zoo stuff in those spaces start to blow up? Well, people will start counter-arguments basically shutting down why people are against it all together, or even. What if it starts happening so much in private web based spaces that going against it, would be a bad move for the government as it could spark protest so they avoid the conversation. What i'm trying to say is in the future, eventually logical arguments will take place of moralistic arguments, in MY opinion, that's the absolute best chance we have as zoos for a "brighter" future.

In regards to something like a forum being too risky. Personally? I think it is in a sense, however, I think the risk you bring to yourself correlates to how you handle your information as well as yourself on a forum like this. Thankfully, this forum also only allows for encryption based services as a means to registration which is neat. Though, I do think being on a forum like this, is taking the risk of making that misstep, so to me..as long as you're smart enough with what you say, what you do and how you manage it all, you're fine to use something like this.

Ironically, that is until the fight against free speech (especially on the internet) is lost..and it's why it's probably one of the most important fights of my lifetime and I hope every day we don't lose that ability because i'd never join another forum like this in my life. I was already hesitate and did a lot of research and chats with OZ's who've been around for a very long time who lurk on this forum.


PS, being disrespectful to a fellow zoo who's on your side, but with a different opinion isn't cool and we should try to avoid that at all costs. I think one of the best things we can teach each other is how to have meaningful conversation to broaden the way we think about it, and to be able to properly asses the risks in the meantime ;)
 
In regards to something like a forum being too risky. Personally? I think it is in a sense, however, I think the risk you bring to yourself correlates to how you handle your information as well as yourself on a forum like this. Thankfully, this forum also only allows for encryption based services as a means to registration which is neat. Though, I do think being on a forum like this, is taking the risk of making that misstep, so to me..as long as you're smart enough with what you say, what you do and how you manage it all, you're fine to use something like this.

So you think that a being on a zoo forum is not too risky, but do you think blogging about zoo issues (such as advocating sex with animals) on a major blogging platform is too risky? (I'm talking about blogging platforms such as Tumblr).
 
So you think that a being on a zoo forum is not too risky, but do you think blogging about zoo issues (such as advocating sex with animals) on a major blogging platform is too risky? (I'm talking about blogging platforms such as Tumblr).

Not yet, no, and hopefully never. I guess you can say it also depends on which "zoo friendly' platform.

In regards to major plaforms like Tumblr, Twiter, etc. I think its a massive risk. Reason being, those sites are simply not safe. The way they collect, store and outsource data does not have your security in mind what so ever.
 
Like I said, its just talk in an echo chamber.

Go out and do something about it. Come out publically, start groups, hit up your legislators. You will lose 100% of the time. Sorry if you think im "pessemistic" but I am merely Realistic. Stop comparing animals to the struggles the LGBTQ community have faced, they're not the same.
 
@Gregory, see a posting I made on the General Forum. It's long as fuck, but it explains clearly exactly the kind of timeline that I think it is realistic for us to think in terms of.

The short version is that us zoophiles are probably almost completely fucked for at least a generation. If you are going to be too old or too sick to enjoy things getting better, by then, then that really does suck for you.

Right now, our #1 priority is trying to keep our community from completely falling apart in the process. Just keeping people like you and me talking to each other on here actually helps, but we also have to stay in contact with other local zoophiles if we can ever find ones that are capable of earning our trust. We have to hold things together because the years coming up are going to be rough.

However, preaching hopelessness, like a doomsday preacher, is not going to make it any easier.

We have to hang onto a hope that we can organize a reemergence. The idiot white knights/Don Quixotes of this generation are going to start growing old and scorned, and we're going to have a chance to take part in reprimanding them.

However, believe me that I am not about to encourage anyone to make rash maneuvers or to give them unrealistic hopes. Generational change is realistic. A VERY FEW localized victories, such as an extremely lucky few successfully coming out to their families without their moms and dads drowning them in the river, are somewhat realistic. Carefully reestablishing inroads in communities that have only recently turned against us is realistic. There are many things that we can accomplish, even during the worst of times, on a small and local level.

Mostly, we are going to have to stick together because there are still rough times ahead. That is reality.
 
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