Feeling of guilt

AppleDash said:
For years I also struggled with the guilt, and telling myself to stop thinking about mares, yet the more I repressed it, the stronger the feelings became. In addition, I didn't grew up with horses, and that made me realise that whatever I was feeling could be something innate.

It seems to me that there is a lot of double standards going on about animal wellbeing, and anti-zoos could gladly use that as an excuse to hide other motives. I figured out that in the end, as I wouldn't hurt the mare (be it emotionally or physically) in the process, there would only be a moral case to condemn me, yet my conscience would be clean.
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Totally true. Many non-zoos still harm animals viciously, while most zoos genuinely love and care for their companions. And yet zoos are the ones who are ostracised and hated by most of society, as if we pick and choose what or who we love.
 
If you don't force anything and the animal is consensual and in fact certainly willing to do so In my humble opinion it's just nature interspecies sex is very common in nature its perfectly natural to feel guilt as we live in a society that has made alot of things taboo
 
egoldstein said:
There are ways to test and prove if the encounters are positive or negatve for the dog. Learned behaviors will increase or maintain frequency in the presence of a positive reinforcement and decrease in frequency with a negative/punishment. With that in mind, we can pick a specific "trick" you want the dog to do to invite sex (and never otherwise) then we can teach it using postive reinforcement as usual. Once the dog understands the new behavior/trick, switch to the cue being an invitation for sex. If the dog keeps "asking" with no other reward involved, you've got a pretty reliable answer.
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Dogs come with their own body language to initiate sex. Why teach them something unnatural instead of just listening to their natural language?

Your suggestion is unnecessarily complex in my opinion and can be misinterpreted. If you first teach the dog a trick with some known positive reinforcement and then reinterpret the meaning of that trick as asking for sex, you have basically trained the dog to "ask for sex". Not just how to ask, but to ask. That is neither a convincing sign for an own desire in the dog nor of consent. I see where you are getting by observing how the use of the trick develops then. But it's dubious. There are other reasons besides a desire for sex why a dog could continue to play along. For example, a dog with a will to please could already interpret your enjoyment of the act (instead of its own) as a continued positive enforcement.
 
Caniform said:
Dogs come with their own body language to initiate sex. Why teach them something unnatural instead of just listening to their natural language?

Your suggestion is unnecessarily complex in my opinion and can be misinterpreted. If you first teach the dog a trick with some known positive reinforcement and then reinterpret the meaning of that trick as asking for sex, you have basically trained the dog to "ask for sex". Not just how to ask, but to ask. That is neither a convincing sign for an own desire in the dog nor of consent. I see where you are getting by observing how the use of the trick develops then. But it's dubious. There are other reasons besides a desire for sex why a dog could continue to play along. For example, a dog with a will to please could already interpret your enjoyment of the act (instead of its own) as a continued positive enforcement.
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The basis is that a behavior will persist or increase in frequency in the presence of a reward/postive outcome and decrease in the presence of a punishment/unwanted outcome. It's not intended to be something a person would typiclly train nor did I say anything about consent, but as a way that if one wanted to know if the dog was enjoying the interaction or not in a clear and repeatable/testable way, that would be one way to find out. It is anything but dubious, it is based on well esstablished science and is testable and repeatable.

Edit: I mentioned it because I often hear arguments that imply sex is either inherently negative or there's no way to know for sure, so I mentioned a way to test. If someone was engaging in sexual relations and had doubts, with a little learning and a practical experiment, they could get a reliable answer.

Also, you seem to have misinderstood an important aspect, I presume it was due to my very brief description. The dog isn't asking for sex, the person is still giving a cue to prompt a behavior then following that behavior with a result (initiating sex instead of a treat). If for instance I use "shake hands" and the dog decreases in the reliably of shaking hands on cue, I should look closely at the sex as it would seem there's a punisher in there, but if the dog maintains a reliable "shake hands" in that situation or it improves, that is a reliable mechanism to infer that it is a positive result. It's an established way of evaluating environmental stimulus to determine if it is a positive or negative; it's not about sex particularly, but pairing the hypothesized "reward" as the result of a behavior and tracking the frequency over time for changes. To be useful, it requires recording data on the "trials" and it Is important of course to not use whatever cue (shake hands in this example) in other situations or one muddies the result.
 
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BigPotato said:
I didn't harm any animal or person, so don't worry about that. The thing is I feel guilty about the way I feel about animals, especially dogs

I love and am attracted to them but at the same time I can't help but feel like this is wrong, that I will end up hurting them without even noticing, and that maybe I should just go to a psychiatrist... I know this isn't wrong, but... A part of me can't stop feeling guilty and afraid, and feeling like maybe I should try to live a more "normal" life.

I don't really know, and it would be great to know if any of you has felt the same way and how you got through it.

Peace to everyone, have a nice day, and sorry for any bad grammar, English is not my first language and I learnt it by myself
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Yeah, sometimes i feel the same way. Sometime worse, overtime completely fine. I hope that you start to feel better soon!
 
BigPotato said:
I didn't harm any animal or person, so don't worry about that. The thing is I feel guilty about the way I feel about animals, especially dogs

I love and am attracted to them but at the same time I can't help but feel like this is wrong, that I will end up hurting them without even noticing, and that maybe I should just go to a psychiatrist... I know this isn't wrong, but... A part of me can't stop feeling guilty and afraid, and feeling like maybe I should try to live a more "normal" life.

I don't really know, and it would be great to know if any of you has felt the same way and how you got through it.

Peace to everyone, have a nice day, and sorry for any bad grammar, English is not my first language and I learnt it by myself
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I too have felt this way before some. Or at least others would judge me.
 
egoldstein said:
The basis is that a behavior will persist or increase in frequency in the presence of a reward/postive outcome and decrease in the presence of a punishment/unwanted outcome. It's not intended to be something a person would typiclly train nor did I say anything about consent, but as a way that if one wanted to know if the dog was enjoying the interaction or not in a clear and repeatable/testable way, that would be one way to find out. It is anything but dubious, it is based on well esstablished science and is testable and repeatable.

Edit: I mentioned it because I often hear arguments that imply sex is either inherently negative or there's no way to know for sure, so I mentioned a way to test. If someone was engaging in sexual relations and had doubts, with a little learning and a practical experiment, they could get a reliable answer.

Also, you seem to have misinderstood an important aspect, I presume it was due to my very brief description. The dog isn't asking for sex, the person is still giving a cue to prompt a behavior then following that behavior with a result (initiating sex instead of a treat). If for instance I use "shake hands" and the dog decreases in the reliably of shaking hands on cue, I should look closely at the sex as it would seem there's a punisher in there, but if the dog maintains a reliable "shake hands" in that situation or it improves, that is a reliable mechanism to infer that it is a positive result. It's an established way of evaluating environmental stimulus to determine if it is a positive or negative; it's not about sex particularly, but pairing the hypothesized "reward" as the result of a behavior and tracking the frequency over time for changes. To be useful, it requires recording data on the "trials" and it Is important of course to not use whatever cue (shake hands in this example) in other situations or one muddies the result.
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But isn’t that what relations are positive and or. Festive reinforcement
 
Michelle Flores said:
I used to live with a lot of guilt. I would think that I wasn't normal, that I was dirty, that people didn't really know me,.that I carried a dark secret. But I think it's the pressures of society and maybe my religious upbringing that was at the root of it all. I came to the realization that we all have faults, secrets, a past , what have you. Nobody is the same, yet nobody is better than the next person and that's what makes everyone of us unique and beautiful. I am happy with who I am. I love me and I will only change for the better. Being emotionally healthy means you need to be happy. Be happy with yourself and thankful you are alive.
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Where you From would love to chat?
 
I carried a lot of guilt around for a long time when I was active with my 1st dog. It was pretty bad, so bad that I buried that part of me for a long long time. Recently, well, a couple of years ago circumstances changed (I won’t bore you with details) and now as a much older and wiser woman I was much more in tune with myself and much more comfortable in my own skin.

I live alone with my German Shepard so that helps as privacy is important. Now I am over my guilty phase and I accept myself for who I am and I have a much deeper and richer understanding and relationship with my Shepard that I did when I was younger.

Maturity helps a lot…as it does with a lot of things
 
I know there’s a lot of posts about guilt already, but I kind of wanted to ask about my situation as I’m struggling. Sorry if this isn’t the right place for it.
I’m an 18 year old male, living at home with our 3 family dogs. One of these dogs took a liking to me a while ago, and I let her hump my hand/arm. She loved it but afterward I felt like such a disgusting human. For a few reasons, like that she’s the family dog, I hate keeping secrets, and I feel like I’m letting everyone down. So I didn’t dare to do anything again after that, until today. I was in my room and she wandered in. She sat on my lap, pressed against me in the right way, and it pushed me a little. I stroked her belly and then tested the waters and stroked her pussy a little bit. She immediately responded and started desperately humping me again, just like last time. I feel even worse now because I feel like I coerced her? I don’t know, I might be over exaggerating because of feeling guilty. I’d never hurt her, or force her to do anything. But I still feel terrible. Please, any advice or insight would be great! :(
 
I think a good place to start would be giving your friend her agency back. In two-legger sociality, some might say you coerced her. In the real world where two organisms are spending time together, you made an offer and your friend communicated that it was favorable and took you up on it. It's important to realize that human sociality is not the Actual World. Human sociality doesn't mean shit on the moon or when you're dying of heat stroke on the Gobi desert. Humans have this very solipsistic view that they are the only organisms with adult desires and needs, and I think a lot of anti sentiment stems from the idea that humans are somehow exceptional or that human objectives are more important than everyone else's. Step outside the pseudoimaginary world two-leggers mistake for reality and look again. You are an organism trying to live your life in the least unpleasant way possible, and so is she. The actions she chooses to take communicate pretty clearly what she finds pleasant. You gave that to her, and while you may (or may not) owe some guilt or shame to the other humans in your sphere, it sounds like you owe none to her.

Edit: I should clarify that I don't mean "do it more and don't worry about it". You are human and human social concerns are something you should weigh in deciding whether to continue with your friend or just stay friends without benefits. Neither I nor anyone here is really qualified to make that decision for you. I just mean that you have permission to not feel guilty to her specifically, and since this occurred in private between you and her, she is the only one you owe a duty of care to and you seem to have met that duty.

If you feel it most prudent to not continue, remember that many intimate friendships do not have a sexual element and are still entirely rewarding and supportive. This is possible regardless of the number of legs your friend has.
 
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Uppies said:
I think a good place to start would be giving your friend her agency back. In two-legger sociality, some might say you coerced her. In the real world where two organisms are spending time together, you made an offer and your friend communicated that it was favorable and took you up on it. It's important to realize that human sociality is not the Actual World. Human sociality doesn't mean shit on the moon or when you're dying of heat stroke on the Gobi desert. Humans have this very solipsistic view that they are the only organisms with adult desires and needs, and I think a lot of anti sentiment stems from the idea that humans are somehow exceptional or that human objectives are more important than everyone else's. Step outside the pseudoimaginary world two-leggers mistake for reality and look again. You are an organism trying to live your life in the least unpleasant way possible, and so is she. The actions she chooses to take communicate pretty clearly what she finds pleasant. You gave that to her, and while you may (or may not) owe some guilt or shame to the other humans in your sphere, it sounds like you owe none to her.
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Thank you for the way you worded this, I really appreciate it :,)
 
Did you ever give her scratches? Like the spot just before her tail that dogs love to be scratched? Did she like it? Most likely the answer is yes. You did something and she enjoyed it thats all that matters. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean its wrong. If a bunch of people decide its wrong to scratch that spot doesn't mean they are right. The "normal" people are the ones who have it wrong, they see pleasuring your girl as messed up. However the same people think chaining a dog up to a tree and living its whole life in a 10 foot circle is perfectly fine. Don't let those people tell you how how to feel about your dog.
 
beast2732 said:
Did you ever give her scratches? Like the spot just before her tail that dogs love to be scratched? Did she like it? Most likely the answer is yes. You did something and she enjoyed it thats all that matters. Just because people don't like it doesn't mean its wrong. If a bunch of people decide its wrong to scratch that spot doesn't mean they are right. The "normal" people are the ones who have it wrong, they see pleasuring your girl as messed up. However the same people think chaining a dog up to a tree and living its whole life in a 10 foot circle is perfectly fine. Don't let those people tell you how how to feel about your dog.
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Thank you for this :,)
 
not much to say, it's ultimately your battle to fight. feeling guilty about my attractions and/or acting upon them is a foreign concept to me. i strive to pleasure them not myself so there is no doubt in my mind if whatever we did was "wrong".

btw, how do you see whatever happened as coercion if she approached you? maybe not with a direct intent of doing anything sexual, but still, you did leave enough space for her to say no and disengage, did you not?
 
nekdoneco123 said:
not much to say, it's ultimately your battle to fight. feeling guilty about my attractions and/or acting upon them is a foreign concept to me. i strive to pleasure them not myself so there is no doubt in my mind if whatever we did was "wrong".

btw, how do you see whatever happened as coercion if she approached you? maybe not with a direct intent of doing anything sexual, but still, you did leave enough space for her to say no and disengage, did you not?
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Yeah, I would never have persisted or forced her to do anything. I guess your mind kind of pushes you to think the worst when you feel ashamed, I dunno
 
stolendance said:
Yeah, I would never have persisted or forced her to do anything. I guess your mind kind of pushes you to think the worst when you feel ashamed, I dunno
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It really does, and these days it feels like there is so much pressure to feel ashamed of even the smallest deviation from social norms. Shame has its place, but save it for when you truly violate someone's boundaries. Your dog's position on the topic is quite clear, and if what you've said is true, then it's safe to assume you haven't yet overstepped her boundaries.I wouldn't be surprised if she were ecstatic that someone Sees her for possibly the first time in her life. That in itself is a pretty big gift for an individual used to being treated like a dim child by the most important people in her life.
 
Uppies said:
It really does, and these days it feels like there is so much pressure to feel ashamed of even the smallest deviation from social norms. Shame has its place, but save it for when you truly violate someone's boundaries. Your dog's position on the topic is quite clear, and if what you've said is true, then it's safe to assume you haven't yet overstepped her boundaries.I wouldn't be surprised if she were ecstatic that someone Sees her for possibly the first time in her life. That in itself is a pretty big gift for an individual used to being treated like a dim child by the most important people in her life.
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I get what you’re saying, I never would’ve thought of it like that. I love all our dogs, course I do, I would never push them or harm them. Thank you so much :,)
 
stolendance said:
Yeah, I would never have persisted or forced her to do anything. I guess your mind kind of pushes you to think the worst when you feel ashamed, I dunno
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I don't think you should feel guilt, while that's easier said than done. What you need to focus on is the fact that she keeps coming to you and she comes to you because she sees something in you; if she didn't want your company and attention she would be avoident. It's new territory for both you and her so always be open to that and take things slow, see what she feels to you and when taking it slow you will soon start to also feel that same bonded connection she is trying to express with you. Just never force something. The enjoyment you both will feel and the experience of being with one another should eliminate any guilt. It's mutual and a wonderful thing.
 
WildWoofer said:
I don't think you should feel guilt, while that's easier said than done. What you need to focus on is the fact that she keeps coming to you and she comes to you because she sees something in you; if she didn't want your company and attention she would be avoident. It's new territory for both you and her so always be open to that and take things slow, see what she feels to you and when taking it slow you will soon start to also feel that same bonded connection she is trying to express with you. Just never force something. The enjoyment you both will feel and the experience of being with one another should eliminate any guilt. It's mutual and a wonderful thing.
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I’m not sure how to like posts but I really appreciate your help, thank you :,)
 
You're not alone. Weve all at one time or another been exactly where you are. Feeling exactly what youve felt. Thankfully, were all here to tell you
Give dogs love and they will love you back. And that exchange looks different for us all.
 
BitchPussyislife said:
You're not alone. Weve all at one time or another been exactly where you are. Feeling exactly what youve felt. Thankfully, were all here to tell you
Give dogs love and they will love you back. And that exchange looks different for us all.
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Thank you :,) I’ve been struggling a little today too. She’s been coming to me to help her out a few times since and I’ve obliged, but now I just feel guilty again. Will she understand if I don’t want to continue doing this? I don’t know if that makes sense but I’m worried about stopping it and hurting her?
 
stolendance said:
I know there’s a lot of posts about guilt already, but I kind of wanted to ask about my situation as I’m struggling. Sorry if this isn’t the right place for it.
I’m an 18 year old male, living at home with our 3 family dogs. One of these dogs took a liking to me a while ago, and I let her hump my hand/arm. She loved it but afterward I felt like such a disgusting human. For a few reasons, like that she’s the family dog, I hate keeping secrets, and I feel like I’m letting everyone down. So I didn’t dare to do anything again after that, until today. I was in my room and she wandered in. She sat on my lap, pressed against me in the right way, and it pushed me a little. I stroked her belly and then tested the waters and stroked her pussy a little bit. She immediately responded and started desperately humping me again, just like last time. I feel even worse now because I feel like I coerced her? I don’t know, I might be over exaggerating because of feeling guilty. I’d never hurt her, or force her to do anything. But I still feel terrible. Please, any advice or insight would be great! :(
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Sorry to hear that. But please know that you can pleasure her in other ways. Love your dog!!
 
BitchPussyislife said:
she think its pleasing to you. I believe thats why she initiates it. She wants to bond and please you...
So just follow your heart ONLY you can answer if its right for her because yo know her. When unsure its best to do nothing.
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I personally think it's simpler than that, it feels good, so she's interested in feeling good and is hoping OP might help her out with that.
I've seen bitches use bedding, furniture, other dogs, other animals, etc to get some stimulation.

That said it's important for us to use good judgement to reduce the risk of harm, to not shape bad behaviors which will get them in trouble, and to keep the dog's benefit in mind while we're trying to get some benefit ourselves. I don't see anything wrong with two organisms using one another for mutual pleasure so long as neither is harmed.

@stolendance , I think @Uppies has given you some of the best advice. I'd add that you should probably pick a particular space to only engage with her at so that she doesn't learn to ask for it with others or in their presence and end up getting punished for it. You need to make sure you're not harming her, but otherwise what the two of you decide to do together for mutual enjoyment isn't really anyhting to feel guilty of. I see no reason for shame in wanting to feel good, in wanting another to feel good, or in both of you making each other feel good. That she isn't "your dog" is potentially problematic, but I think so long as there's no harm and you aren't teaching her things that will get her in trouble (i.e. she doesn't learn to start grabbing legs and riding, which is almost certainly unwanted by others in the household) there's not a lot of ethical problems I see there and not much reason for guilt.
 
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