Zeta Principle as Community Standard (Education Without Promotion)

[temporaryacc]

Thank you, And your thoughts on the philosophical foundations of the ZPs? How the human component calls into question the support of fetishists?

Listen man I don’t know what to tell you. I try to look at both sides. There definitely merit in a lot of the ideals, but there’s also bullshit, or stuff I don’t agree with. We can agree to disagree.

Edit: overshared a bit there

 

[rockymountaindog]

Is caring for animal agency and well being "virtue signaling" or a sensible approach to ethical behavior?

I wouldn't say it is but the more you wonder around this forum the more you will see people use different sets of morality to gaslight others.

 

[Kharrs]

I wouldn't say it is but the more you wonder around this forum the more you will see people use different sets of morality to gaslight others.

So there are elements in the forum that really don't want to see unity or cohesion?

 

[nekdoneco123]

Dig down a bit, what do you mean by "properly and safely"?

without abuse or any harm to either party.

 

[Kharrs]

without abuse or any harm to either party.

I think that's a very similar basic root, I mean, how can we come to an agreement how to approach educating people so as to minimize abuse and harm? I think this is the point of considering animal agency and physical/emotional wellbeing. I think it's two very small steps from "without abuse or harm" to "educate without promoting."

 

[nekdoneco123]

I mean, how can we come to an agreement how to approach educating people so as to minimize abuse and harm?

we cannot. there's no guarantee anyone writing the usual "how do i do XY with *insert animal*?" questions actually heeds the answers given, especially when the answer boils down to "no, don't do that it's abusive/harmful, do this instead".

I think it's two very small steps from "without abuse or harm" to "educate without promoting."

it is. i adhere to the zeta principles. i don't think educating someone how to make their sexual relations with their animal partner pleasurable and safe for both/all involved counts as promotion.

 

[egoldstein]

• Discourage the practice of bestiality in the presence of fetish seekers.

This is specifically what I’m against… I thought I made that clear but I’ve been told I fail to get my point across sometimes (often)

Fetish seekers need to be taught (and yelled at). They will continue to exist, as much as I hate them. They do still exist. I’d rather they do it ethically then just be told not to (because they will turn around and do it anyways)

Also how the hell do you expect to accept zoophilia if you try to encourage people not to do it at all. “Talk them out not in” which I agree with to a point. You’re arguing that beastiality is bad… which I’m pretty sure is the same argument antis are making.

That's been one of my complaints on the various ZP that have popped up over the years. In general I think they're not too bad and have some utility as guiding principless though. I can't control what others do, but I might be able to show them other ways. I have nothing against someone who engages in bestiality with or without love so long as there's mutual respect of agency, all parties are allowed to nope out, and there's no harm.
I think it better to inform than to gatekeep. At least with information the possiblity of harm is hopefully reduced.

I'm not sure where I stated censorship of bestialists. I think you misunderstand the idea of holding people accountable for neglect and abuse. Something you already do. I'm not certain I understand your issue.

It's a common understanding many get from "Discourage the practice of bestiality in the presence of fetish seekers.". There are other versions of the ZP over the years that have had better wording IMO.
I'm a romantic zoo, but one of my goals is to help people see non-humans as individuals with their own desires and if I find someone, fetishist or not, who is engaging in or considering it I feel discouraging is not helpful but providing accurate information can be. To me the biggest problem with this particular one is that if you shun completely, you also limit the ability of discussion with them to help with seeing other ways of viewing non-humans. I feel it's important to keep one foot in the mud to help others stuck than to stand by clean, but aloof.

I've maintained for years, and will continue to maintain, that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A ZOO COMMUNITY.

I've also said the same thing for years. There are subgroups within subgroups here with some overlap, but in a place like this there is too much diversity to lump us all.

 

[Kharrs]

Here you go WGW clone



Thread 'How to fuck a horse'


Thread 'Fence Hopping'



Thread 'Hire prostitute for dog sex?'



Thread 'First Time'



Thread 'The abusive porn cleanup project'

Alright I have to study for an exam. I got lazy picking them from Ye old dumpster fire. But still some were originally posted in main thread.

Lots of good community action in there, though the prostitution thread is a bit disappointing. In general, you have shown a pattern of "self-policing." The motivations at times seem to be chasing clout, and at times unnecessarily hostile. It does seem to indicate that there are groups here that do take ethics and caring for animals here seriously. It's a shame you resist the codification of it. Good luck with your studies.

 

[HugDoggy]

I know that I am new to the forum, but looking around, what better place than here to discuss ethics and morality.
It seems to me that just as an unexamined life isn't worth living., an unexamined community isn't worth having.

The concept of community has always sparked debate. How do we define who we are, who are the "others," who is included or excluded.
Do we refer to community by proximity? (Ethical, geographic, electronic, interest.)

I've found the Zeta Principles to be a useful tool in helping conceptualize what a zoo community could and should be. (Ref: Zeta-Verein)

Presumably, we want to maintain a sustainable, defendable and positive course as "we" navigate society at large. Surely a zoo community that promoted harmful acts or demonstrably "evil" behavior would not be able to get any traction whether it be social (zoos connecting with zoos), psychological (studies and scientific opinion of zoos), legal (bestiality laws) or societal (zoos as viewed by the public). Granted, you could ask a dozen members of any zoo forum what goals they might entertain for a "zoo community" and you'd get a dozen different answers, but the larger point, I would argue, stands: the Zeta Principles do provide a useful framework for testing the behavior of individuals and communities engaged with love and sexual acts with animals.

One such principal I have always taken to heart that I'd like to discuss here:

Teach those who seek knowledge about zoophilia and bestiality without promoting it.

So why would we want to answer questions as a community to those seeking information on zoophilia and bestiality?

1. The emotional (social, personal, mourning) and physical risks (allergies, disease, anatomy and physical preparation) associated with zoophilia are not immediately apparent to the uninitiated. It's important to give people a chance to understand them and ways to mitigate them before they jump off the deep end.
2. There is a need for credible sources to provide accurate information and battle misinformation (concerning issues of safety, history and ethical behavior)
3. There are destructive elements within the "zoo online sphere of influence" which love to pray upon those who don't know any better (talking about a push to provide content, join destructive groups or take unnecessary risks)

Why would we not promote it?

1. It's risky, unless one proceeds carefully, there could be unforeseen consequences for both human and animal. These risks are simply not worth an action just to satisfy a simple curiosity or passing interest. (You can't go back once you have taken the plunge.)
2. Another issue with promotion of bestiality would include the very real possibility of the proliferation of animal pornography and exploitation. It simply should not be common.
3. Bringing an animal partner into your life will forever change it. You'll be limited on what jobs you can take, how much you can travel, what social circles you travel, not to mention how expensive it is to adequately care for them. It's a huge responsibility.

It would seem, if we wish to present ourselves as a community with moral standards, providing accurate educational resources without actually promoting the act should be a good place to start.

What are your thoughts, do you think this axiom provides a good framework?

I will preface this with I'm just finishing my peanut butter on toast before going to work. So this is just off the top of my head I have not read the full discussion.

At the crux of it all Knowledge is power, power to do the right thing. It's easy to do the wrong thing if you don't know any better.
So...
if you know how to read an animals body language, it is greatly easier to tell if they are on board with what your doing with them.
If you know the risks involved in participating in an activity you can work to mitigate the risks.
If you know how to handle things when they get FUBARed then you can reduce the likely hood of a bad situation being made worse.

Thus basically if you're ethical generally and you have the knowledge, you're far more likely to do what is in the best interest of the animal.

If your not ethical or only care about your own pleasure, all the knowledge in the world doesn't count for anything.

But if those of us who have been there and made the mistakes don't help those just starting out or still learning then history will just be repeated and animals and humans will both be the worse for it. That is the power of a community to be able to come together when someone else is in need of assistance or guidance on their journey.

While I agree with the Zeta Principles and do my best to live by them, they can only ever be a guide there is no way to enforce them, but if enough people lead by example and speak up when they see something wrong or abusive: such as reporting bad porn if you come across it, or telling someone not to grab a tail to stop a running dog, then the world has to be a better place for all that inhabit it humans and non-humans a like.

Now I've got to run the boss is yelling at me to get to work, which is giving me a head ache, because I'm working for myself today. Well I guess I'm also working for my animals the job wouldn't exist if not for them.

 

[Gunslinger1X]

So there are elements in the forum that really don't want to see unity or cohesion?

We've both met far too many "zoos" who (after meeting then) none of us would want any "unity" with.
It isn't that they're abusive or the like, just beyond sane OR socially balanced

 

[Oldman]

So there are elements in the forum that really don't want to see unity or cohesion?

I let the people more versed in human nature to create the groups and weed out the bad ones before they become a problem. I was too trusting, and quickly found the error of my way and vanished before the shit hit the fan. Yes, I lost a whole lot of money, but it was worth it. A good 8 or 10 years later they managed to find themselves in prison.

Those people that don't want unity or cohesion could have possibly been in the same position I was and don't want anyone else to fall in the same hole. A lot of people are desperate enough to ignore the red flags and make some serious mistakes.

They could just be bitter fools that don't want anyone happy.

Some could also be so scared they are petrified to do anything.

There could be people who tried and failed so hard that anyone trying to do the same, they label as total idiots and are quite loud about it.

And then there are some people. Some people that carve out a little slice of freedom and awesomeness for themselves. They somehow come across others that have done the same and out of pure fucking happenstance, a tiny community is born. Even if this so called community is really just a group of friends that lend each other a hand every now and then, or get together every weekend to play games and chat and simply just enjoy living the dream. This breeds more friends, and so on and so on.

Will there ever be an actual community? I don't think so. Will there be a group of tight knit friends that act like one? Yes. Yes there is. And yes, there will always be some, somewhere on earth. There may be a LOT more of these than we can imagine, however, if they are revealed to the wrong person... They will cease to exist.

Maybe I'm rambling. Or just a senile fool.

 

[UR20Z]

I let the people more versed in human nature to create the groups and weed out the bad ones before they become a problem. I was too trusting, and quickly found the error of my way and vanished before the shit hit the fan. Yes, I lost a whole lot of money, but it was worth it. A good 8 or 10 years later they managed to find themselves in prison.

Those people that don't want unity or cohesion could have possibly been in the same position I was and don't want anyone else to fall in the same hole. A lot of people are desperate enough to ignore the red flags and make some serious mistakes.

They could just be bitter fools that don't want anyone happy.

Some could also be so scared they are petrified to do anything.

There could be people who tried and failed so hard that anyone trying to do the same, they label as total idiots and are quite loud about it.

And then there are some people. Some people that carve out a little slice of freedom and awesomeness for themselves. They somehow come across others that have done the same and out of pure fucking happenstance, a tiny community is born. Even if this so called community is really just a group of friends that lend each other a hand every now and then, or get together every weekend to play games and chat and simply just enjoy living the dream. This breeds more friends, and so on and so on.

Will there ever be an actual community? I don't think so. Will there be a group of tight knit friends that act like one? Yes. Yes there is. And yes, there will always be some, somewhere on earth. There may be a LOT more of these than we can imagine, however, if they are revealed to the wrong person... They will cease to exist.

Maybe I'm rambling. Or just a senile fool.

Or perhaps you're just speaking pure, triple-distilled, ultra-high-grade sense...