YouTubing zoophile-haters

[BlueBeard]

So much "so-and-so must die" stuff. Scared the b'jeebers out of me. Recognized one of our member's names running through them, how many people going after him. Trying to find out what country he is in, what's he look like, where's he live, soliciting people to join in the search for him. To kill him, sounds to me.

And then someone did identify him, I guess. Couple different YouTube posts, I think, showed his face, gave his name. One guy said he was reposting it ... again ... because YouTube kept taking down his posts or relegating them to a protected area as material not fit for kids.

The thing that got me was how they got people so rabidly involved. I saw a famous comedian even using dialogs our community member had been in, reading from the guy's postings, making fun of him. He seemed completely confident that ridiculing this man would bind the audience to him, establish an unquestionable rapport. And... it did?

By some kind of vague, mutual assent, it was okay to dismiss him as a dog-fucker, not man. Let's all get him.

Sickening impressions were swirling before my eyes, superimposing themselves over the vids I was watching, memories, sickening memories. A woman in a burka being stoned to death by a rabid crowd, or another one, years ago, in Afghanistan, showing how a woman was taken into an open spot and shot in the head and then in the body repeatedly, for having been caught having sex. Or alleged to have been having sex.

First it was the recognition that some cultures foment this ugliness within us. This evil not that deep within us is so easily conjured up by an accusatory finger and a few words, giving us permission to kill. Not just kill, but savagely destroy. A mob. A angry, murderous mob, laughing maniacally together as we go in for the kill.

More horrifying still was that it was *my* culture doing it. Not some *other* culture, overseas, in the Middle East. It was *my* culture. I had liked that comedian before I listened to him solicit his audience to join him in ridiculing the man, making him look like an imbecile. And in that dismissiveness, that comedian summoned up that hideous monster from the people who, on any other topic, I would have been laughing right along with.

But this isn't a joke. He's not telling a joke. He's pointing a finger and has a mob's attention: "This guy, go kill. Get your ropes and beer coolers, let's go find a tree."

This 21st century witch-hunting. This was watching a pack of feral dogs finding a fawn all alone and circling around it just for the fun of killing.

Attacking people for enjoying their sexuality is not just a political agenda. It's a sport. It's *not* about sex at all. It's about how certain sexual behaviors, even in 2020, give a mob of human beings permission to join in the fun of hunting down one of their own kind and bashing them to death, watching the life go out of them, blowing their last bit of breath as bubbles in blood running from their nose and mouth.

I can deal with misguided laws and poorly made arguments. But this? How does anyone stand up to this?

I can't shake it from my head this morning. I've been looking at it wrong.

It's not a debate. Not an argument. It isn't about whether it's okay to have sex with a dog or not. It never gets that far. It is only ever about having the excuse to hunt down and kill a human being. About gathering together a mob. Finding a rope. Being part of the mob and lighting each other's torches to go kill another person together. What great fun.

It has always been this way, throughout history. Give us a reason, any reason, to justify homicide.

Even in 2020? Still? In the enlightened, modern, "civilized" cultures that span the globe now. Because anyone who uses their pee-pee in a frivolously non-reproductive way... warrants homocide. And we get to say we were protecting animals as our excuse. Not blood lust. Protection of the women and children...er, I mean, animals in this case.

I feel despair. That's not something we can fight with words or reason. With great shame, I realize it's part of the human condition. "Our kind" will *always* need an "excuse" to single out someone to kill.

It's in us. That "excuse to kill." Permission to be violent.

Another example comes to mind, by comparison. Last fall at a lifestyle resort, late night party, a drunken old fat man, jerked out his cock and called other party goers to come pull a train on my wife. People have sex at these parties, so... sometimes fat little old drunk men do things like this.

I do not intervene when a man makes advances unless she asks me to. It's a rule. She is not a "possession" I have to protect. But I am her best friend on the planet ,and the resort's main rule is "No means no." And she said no, yet he awkwardly and stupidly pressed on, holding her down where she was sitting, trying to mount her face. He persisted, and so I didn't wait for her to ask. I'm a large man. To make him stop, I just shoved him backward fairly firmly, saying clearly, "She said 'no.'" He fell down, was huffing and gruffing. And it was over.

... But later, another man hears what happened and says he wants to go find this guy. He's trying to get some guys together to go teach him a lesson. I'm saying it isn't necessary. The guy probably feels like shit this morning, having had too much to drink. Might not even remember that it happened. Nothing happened.

But this other man... he won't let it go. He'd have done this or that. He'd have -- and he said it -- "killed" that guy if it was his wife. If I wasn't going to do something about it, he would. And he was "rallying" people in the thread to find out who it was and go after him. He was trying to get people to join him. In this case, they did not. As I said, it's a lifestyle resort. People have sex. Point is... what this second guy did. Immediately. Where did this come from?

Blood lust. It was never about "rape" or about defending my wife. This guy wanted permission to kill. He almost instinctively recognized an opportunity to go all "beast" on this other guy. And if I wasn't going to use my permission, give it to him, please.

I remember that feeling myself, from when I was much younger, that urge to be violent, looking for the right those occasion to go nuts on someone. This dark thing is in me, too. Or it was. Or ... I don't know, maybe it's buried deeper in me somewhere? How is it today that I don't see a justification in the use of deadly force just because someone says "they want to play with their pee-pee" in less than reproductively fruitful ways?

A man has sex with dogs who seem to enjoy it. He's posted his explanations, which evidently were not in his first language, or else were the result of a lot of Google Translate. And the "mob" doesn't try to understand him. Understanding is never the point. They only smell blood in the water. Their heads turn to see, sniffing the air in unison: "Is this one of those opportunities to put someone on the run? -- Let loose the quarry: we have our bibles and guns, tar and feathers, ropes and rocks.

On one hand I want to ask for help shaking off the mood this has put me in. On the other, no. That's part of the travesty, the desire to look away, not feel this, not recognize it for it is. This is in us. This is part of being human, too, this....

Blood lust.

 

[420Fatty]

Seems like you've had an awakening.
*Hugs* Welcome to reality, there is no going back.

 

[aqua]

Youtube is pit of noise and consumption and filth.

Although there's no evidence Mahatma Gandhi ever said this, "first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win," fits well here. Carry on being better than they think you are, and eventually the rest of the world will move on and their garbage won't matter in the slightest.

?

 

[Tgzoogirl]

Humans in general today are still as uncivilized as they always have been. Technology and cities does not equate to being a civilized people. In some ways we could argue that having technology like we do, technology that most humans don't understand, has made many even more uncivilized than before.

Just look at the obsession of things like social media and the cesspool of hate and racism that runs rampant on them. Witch-hunts are common online. Once someone becomes a "Target" it's unfortunately very easy for those who target to amass a mob of weak minded humans to form a mob to go after their chosen target.

This is partly due to how most humans brains and minds operate, on a neurological level.

 

[FloofyNewfie]

I think I know exactly who you are talking about. Just google his name and he's everywhere as well, if it is who I think it is. Also, yeah. As "civilized" and "developed" as we like to think we are. We still have a caveman mentality. Most of these issues arise from our inherent tribalism. Zoos vs. Anti-Zoo. Republicans vs. Democrats. 49ers vs. Seahawks. Some people are generally peaceful and others are out for bloodlust. When it comes to anti-zoos their rage, while understandable, is a result of ignorance.

 

[Bigpaws_Bear]

it's like a radio, if you do not like what your hearing, change the channel or switch it off.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

So much "so-and-so must die" stuff. Scared the b'jeebers out of me. Recognized one of our member's names running through them, how many people going after him. Trying to find out what country he is in, what's he look like, where's he live, soliciting people to join in the search for him. To kill him, sounds to me.

And then someone did identify him, I guess. Couple different YouTube posts, I think, showed his face, gave his name. One guy said he was reposting it ... again ... because YouTube kept taking down his posts or relegating them to a protected area as material not fit for kids.

The thing that got me was how they got people so rabidly involved. I saw a famous comedian even using dialogs our community member had been in, reading from the guy's postings, making fun of him. He seemed completely confident that ridiculing this man would bind the audience to him, establish an unquestionable rapport. And... it did?

By some kind of vague, mutual assent, it was okay to dismiss him as a dog-fucker, not man. Let's all get him.

Sickening impressions were swirling before my eyes, superimposing themselves over the vids I was watching, memories, sickening memories. A woman in a burka being stoned to death by a rabid crowd, or another one, years ago, in Afghanistan, showing how a woman was taken into an open spot and shot in the head and then in the body repeatedly, for having been caught having sex. Or alleged to have been having sex.

First it was the recognition that some cultures foment this ugliness within us. This evil not that deep within us is so easily conjured up by an accusatory finger and a few words, giving us permission to kill. Not just kill, but savagely destroy. A mob. A angry, murderous mob, laughing maniacally together as we go in for the kill.

More horrifying still was that it was *my* culture doing it. Not some *other* culture, overseas, in the Middle East. It was *my* culture. I had liked that comedian before I listened to him solicit his audience to join him in ridiculing the man, making him look like an imbecile. And in that dismissiveness, that comedian summoned up that hideous monster from the people who, on any other topic, I would have been laughing right along with.

But this isn't a joke. He's not telling a joke. He's pointing a finger and has a mob's attention: "This guy, go kill. Get your ropes and beer coolers, let's go find a tree."

This 21st century witch-hunting. This was watching a pack of feral dogs finding a fawn all alone and circling around it just for the fun of killing.

Attacking people for enjoying their sexuality is not just a political agenda. It's a sport. It's *not* about sex at all. It's about how certain sexual behaviors, even in 2020, give a mob of human beings permission to join in the fun of hunting down one of their own kind and bashing them to death, watching the life go out of them, blowing their last bit of breath as bubbles in blood running from their nose and mouth.

I can deal with misguided laws and poorly made arguments. But this? How does anyone stand up to this?

I can't shake it from my head this morning. I've been looking at it wrong.

It's not a debate. Not an argument. It isn't about whether it's okay to have sex with a dog or not. It never gets that far. It is only ever about having the excuse to hunt down and kill a human being. About gathering together a mob. Finding a rope. Being part of the mob and lighting each other's torches to go kill another person together. What great fun.

It has always been this way, throughout history. Give us a reason, any reason, to justify homicide.

Even in 2020? Still? In the enlightened, modern, "civilized" cultures that span the globe now. Because anyone who uses their pee-pee in a frivolously non-reproductive way... warrants homocide. And we get to say we were protecting animals as our excuse. Not blood lust. Protection of the women and children...er, I mean, animals in this case.

I feel despair. That's not something we can fight with words or reason. With great shame, I realize it's part of the human condition. "Our kind" will *always* need an "excuse" to single out someone to kill.

It's in us. That "excuse to kill." Permission to be violent.

Another example comes to mind, by comparison. Last fall at a lifestyle resort, late night party, a drunken old fat man, jerked out his cock and called other party goers to come pull a train on my wife. People have sex at these parties, so... sometimes fat little old drunk men do things like this.

I do not intervene when a man makes advances unless she asks me to. It's a rule. She is not a "possession" I have to protect. But I am her best friend on the planet ,and the resort's main rule is "No means no." And she said no, yet he awkwardly and stupidly pressed on, holding her down where she was sitting, trying to mount her face. He persisted, and so I didn't wait for her to ask. I'm a large man. To make him stop, I just shoved him backward fairly firmly, saying clearly, "She said 'no.'" He fell down, was huffing and gruffing. And it was over.

... But later, another man hears what happened and says he wants to go find this guy. He's trying to get some guys together to go teach him a lesson. I'm saying it isn't necessary. The guy probably feels like shit this morning, having had too much to drink. Might not even remember that it happened. Nothing happened.

But this other man... he won't let it go. He'd have done this or that. He'd have -- and he said it -- "killed" that guy if it was his wife. If I wasn't going to do something about it, he would. And he was "rallying" people in the thread to find out who it was and go after him. He was trying to get people to join him. In this case, they did not. As I said, it's a lifestyle resort. People have sex. Point is... what this second guy did. Immediately. Where did this come from?

Blood lust. It was never about "rape" or about defending my wife. This guy wanted permission to kill. He almost instinctively recognized an opportunity to go all "beast" on this other guy. And if I wasn't going to use my permission, give it to him, please.

I remember that feeling myself, from when I was much younger, that urge to be violent, looking for the right those occasion to go nuts on someone. This dark thing is in me, too. Or it was. Or ... I don't know, maybe it's buried deeper in me somewhere? How is it today that I don't see a justification in the use of deadly force just because someone says "they want to play with their pee-pee" in less than reproductively fruitful ways?

A man has sex with dogs who seem to enjoy it. He's posted his explanations, which evidently were not in his first language, or else were the result of a lot of Google Translate. And the "mob" doesn't try to understand him. Understanding is never the point. They only smell blood in the water. Their heads turn to see, sniffing the air in unison: "Is this one of those opportunities to put someone on the run? -- Let loose the quarry: we have our bibles and guns, tar and feathers, ropes and rocks.

On one hand I want to ask for help shaking off the mood this has put me in. On the other, no. That's part of the travesty, the desire to look away, not feel this, not recognize it for it is. This is in us. This is part of being human, too, this....

Blood lust.

Do not argue with sociopaths. It is easy to get caught up in fussing with them, but those people are the same kinds of people that used to go through gay neighborhoods beating them to death.

The best thing you can do is try to get more attention from relatively decent human beings that know better than to engage in that kind of behavior, and keep on building up alliances.

If any of those "blood in the water" kinds of people ever threaten you or your property, defend yourself with your rights under the law first and with deadly force second, but do not take deadly force off the table, either. A sociopath is not like ordinary people. They are crazy. The less you interact with them, the better. Ostracizing them is the only thing that works.

There will always be evil men in the world, and it will always be necessary to be prepared to defend ourselves from them. This would still be true if we were not zoos at all. Everybody has to deal with the danger to society posed by a sociopath.

They are not "society," though, or "people." People come in many different types. They are only the worst example of them.

 

[Aluzky]

@BlueBeard

So, who where you talking about? Kero the wolf? Witney-wisconsing? Ethical-Z? Aluzky? Youtube is pretty much my turf, any anti-zoo video uploaded there and I will be there to eventually comment. There has been several zoos or bestialists attacked there.

And youtube used to be better before google bought it. Now people get away with doing hate speech, bullying, and false DMCAs and false flagging of channels.

Edit: Moderators can also be homophobic or zoophobic and invent fake excuses to delete channels rom gays or zoos with no factual reason to do so. And with little hope that youtube will reinstate those channels.

 

[BlueBeard]

@BlueBeard

So, who where you talking about? Kero the wolf? Witney-wisconsing? Ethical-Z? Aluzky? Youtube is pretty much my turf, any anti-zoo video uploaded there and I will be there to eventually comment. There has been several zoos or bestialists attacked there.

And youtube used to be better before google bought it. Now people get away with doing hate speech, bulling, and false DMCAs and false flaging of channels.

I won't say, because to mention who it is will make people Google it, and then they will know the identity. And anonymity is a treasured policy at Zooville. So... I don't want to jeopardize that.

Just that, wow. Makes me sick to my stomach.

Then I realize, I am no "Suzy." Should anyone threaten me or anyone of us, and I have the opportunity to defend them? -- My alter-ego is 12pups. I am a guard dog at heart. I would defend friends here to the death. I have your backs. Hope that you have mine?

I guess "to the death," if part of being human, is part of me, too. So it has always been with our species.

 

[TheMareOnTheMoon]

I wouldn't worry so much about it. The majority of commentors on the subject are just youtubers milking a trendy topic to the extreme. All of them repeat the same arguments over and over again to get their views. Also the hateful comments aren't serious, just shocked. Imagine yourself in their position as a non zoophile. Just the thought about it would disgust you and the mob with the more radical opinions would be easy to get on.

 

[BlueBeard]

I wouldn't worry so much about it. The majority of commentors on the subject are just youtubers milking a trendy topic to the extreme. All of them repeat the same arguments over and over again to get their views. Also the hateful comments aren't serious, just shocked. Imagine yourself in their position as a non zoophile. Just the thought about it would disgust you and the mob with the more radical opinions would be easy to get on.

I wish it were so harmless.

There are dedicated "vigilante" posses committed to ruining our lives. Extinguishing them, if possible. And they have been quite successful in a few cases. In the one I was following -- a prominent member right here, active in our threads right now -- they have successfully worked out his name, photos of him, his location, cities/countries he visits, and are asking for people to end his life for the "sake of the dogs he's victimizing."

All too many times in history, some unbalanced person takes that on themselves as their "contribution to the cause," and acts on it. Death threats should never be taken lightly. And even *if* they aren't serious, the upset that they cause is enough to be sickening.

This poor soul has been scorched from possibly having a normal life. There is no way to just not "worry so much about it" -- even though I *think* I'm safe from the same sort of persecution.

Then, too, you know about Fausty's problems, right? Arguably the most publicly persecuted zoo of Zooville? (God rest his soul).

I would beg to differ. There is much reason to be concerned about this, in my way of thinking. (And I do. I use a VPN to hide me from my IP. I have taken down any reference to my location. I still worry I've given TMI too many times. Yet I'm also not willing to be completely silent. "My kind" have not been well represented to the general public -- sane, stable, "normal" everyday working class Joe with good community standing. Only the "out there," loud, extreme examples get the press so far. Not blaming them, just... ain't doing us no favors. We need the meek to stand up and be counted. But to do so? That's to risk seeing a laser sight's dot on your breast.)

 

[Pillar]

I wish it were so harmless.

There are dedicated "vigilante" posses committed to ruining our lives. Extinguishing them, if possible. And they have been quite successful in a few cases. In the one I was following -- a prominent member right here, active in our threads right now -- they have successfully worked out his name, photos of him, his location, cities/countries he visits, and are asking for people to end his life for the "sake of the dogs he's victimizing."

All too many times in history, some unbalanced person takes that on themselves as their "contribution to the cause," and acts on it. Death threats should never be taken lightly. And even *if* they aren't serious, the upset that they cause is enough to be sickening.

This poor soul has been scorched from possibly having a normal life. There is no way to just not "worry so much about it" -- even though I *think* I'm safe from the same sort of persecution.

Then, too, you know about Fausty's problems, right? Arguably the most publicly persecuted zoo of Zooville? (God rest his soul).

I would beg to differ. There is much reason to be concerned about this, in my way of thinking. (And I do. I use a VPN to hide me from my IP. I have taken down any reference to my location. I still worry I've given TMI too many times. Yet I'm also not willing to be completely silent. "My kind" have not been well represented to the general public -- sane, stable, "normal" everyday working class Joe with good community standing. Only the "out there," loud, extreme examples get the press so far. Not blaming them, just... ain't doing us no favors. We need the meek to stand up and be counted. But to do so? That's to risk seeing a laser sight's dot on your breast.)

Or to risk involuntary incarceration along with a ruined life. ☹

 

[CritterFunatic]

Internet witch hunts aren't anything new, even outside of youtube. Cyberbullying, doxing, all those things happen on a daily base and nobody really cares unless they are involved somehow.

The sad thing is, you can't really stop people from turning into braindead followers of fearmongers and hatespeech spreaders. Whenever there is a scandal (and yes, having sexual relationsships with anything non-human is among those topics), then people get into that torch and pitchfork mood.

Being the better (wo)man doesn't help either. The best is to keep personal stuff about yourself to you. Everything you say on the internet, especially without VPNs and the likes, may be tracked back to you.

And yet, I see people comparing the situation zoophiles are in with the LGBT-movement (which is more than just a stretch), condemning people who chose to remain silent with the death of social movements and who honestly think that they just have to expose the majority of regular people with whatever weird orientation they have to "normalize" it in the eyes of the majority of "normies".

If people want to get out into the public, they first have to take of the rose tinted glasses of idealism and have to see the world for what it is: Not ready to accept zoophiles. Bestiality might be a socially accepted joke in some wackier movies, but that's it. Most regular people can't and won't deal with it. They might think that being a zoophile is a mental sickness in the best of cases, they might think zoophiles are criminals that need to be hunted down in the worst case scenarios.

Especially in times of self-righteous vigilante online groups like anonymous people should finally realize how easy other people online fall for propaganda, misinformation and hate speech. How easy people can be riled up, how they lack mercy and empathy for the people whose life they ruin.

The internet isn't a safe-space. It never was and it never will be. Sooner or later people might draw the wrong kind of attention. The best course of action is to not come out of the closet, at least not on the internet or in some kind of media. Especially when private information are involved. Don't get them tangled up with juicy details about a misunderstood sex-life.

Youtube clearly isn't the problem here, but the herd-mentality of drama-starved, weak minded people, who lurk online for the next scandal. And there will always be people like that.

So, to anyone who feels the total need to "come out": Think twice where and to whom you want to come out.

 

[CritterFunatic]

See? That's basically what "they" think as well. That they do the right thing, that they hunt down the "vermin" to keep society sane and clean. It's the same modus operandi.

I don't blame you for feeling this way. We probably have all been there at some point. Angry, because we are powerless to protect another witch hunt victim. But in the end, it doesn't help. We have to learn how to deal with the internet in a reasonable way. Media competency. Privacy. Not broadcasting personal stuff into the dark.

On the internet everybody is a tough guy, but the internet isn't a game that can be won. It's a serious issue. Stuff said in the wrong place or that might been picked up the wrong way can't be taken back. And shit like that ruined the life of many people, even of some who never did something wrong to begin with, of people who were mistaken for somebody else.

The only reasonable thing to do is to recognize the web for what it is, for what it can and can't do and to figure out how it works and how to stay safe while using it. That includes not to publicly broadcast sensitive information and yet, even this forum advertises a zoophile-youtube-broadcast ( https://www.zooville.org/resources/zooier-than-thou.9/ ). I surely can't be the only one thinking this might be a horrible idea and the upvote/downvote ratio seems to agree with me. If it were anywhere else than on youtube of all things, I might think slightly different about that, but to me that just screams for more trouble to come, eventually.

 

[BlueBeard]

See? That's basically what "they" think as well. That they do the right thing, that they hunt down the "vermin" to keep society sane and clean. It's the same modus operandi.

I don't blame you for feeling this way. We probably have all been there at some point. Angry, because we are powerless to protect another witch hunt victim. But in the end, it doesn't help. We have to learn how to deal with the internet in a reasonable way. Media competency. Privacy. Not broadcasting personal stuff into the dark.

On the internet everybody is a tough guy, but the internet isn't a game that can be won. It's a serious issue. Stuff said in the wrong place or that might been picked up the wrong way can't be taken back. And shit like that ruined the life of many people, even of some who never did something wrong to begin with, of people who were mistaken for somebody else.

The only reasonable thing to do is to recognize the web for what it is, for what it can and can't do and to figure out how it works and how to stay safe while using it. That includes not to publicly broadcast sensitive information and yet, even this forum advertises a zoophile-youtube-broadcast ( https://www.zooville.org/resources/zooier-than-thou.9/ ). I surely can't be the only one thinking this might be a horrible idea and the upvote/downvote ratio seems to agree with me. If it were anywhere else than on youtube of all things, I might think slightly different about that, but to me that just screams for more trouble to come, eventually.

Shhh... no one has to know. Carry on. But... I *got* this.

 

[CritterFunatic]

Shhh... no one has to know. Carry on. But... I *got* this.

I see... Pretend I said nothing in this case...

 

[BlueBeard]

I see... Pretend I said nothing in this case...

Exactly. Group hugs. (I lurk).

 

[CritterFunatic]

Exactly. Group hugs. (I lurk).

Equally lurking bunnies give best hugs... Or so they think.

 

[Pillar]

Internet witch hunts aren't anything new, even outside of youtube. Cyberbullying, doxing, all those things happen on a daily base and nobody really cares unless they are involved somehow.

The sad thing is, you can't really stop people from turning into braindead followers of fearmongers and hatespeech spreaders. Whenever there is a scandal (and yes, having sexual relationsships with anything non-human is among those topics), then people get into that torch and pitchfork mood.

Being the better (wo)man doesn't help either. The best is to keep personal stuff about yourself to you. Everything you say on the internet, especially without VPNs and the likes, may be tracked back to you.

And yet, I see people comparing the situation zoophiles are in with the LGBT-movement (which is more than just a stretch), condemning people who chose to remain silent with the death of social movements and who honestly think that they just have to expose the majority of regular people with whatever weird orientation they have to "normalize" it in the eyes of the majority of "normies".

If people want to get out into the public, they first have to take of the rose tinted glasses of idealism and have to see the world for what it is: Not ready to accept zoophiles. Bestiality might be a socially accepted joke in some wackier movies, but that's it. Most regular people can't and won't deal with it. They might think that being a zoophile is a mental sickness in the best of cases, they might think zoophiles are criminals that need to be hunted down in the worst case scenarios.

Especially in times of self-righteous vigilante online groups like anonymous people should finally realize how easy other people online fall for propaganda, misinformation and hate speech. How easy people can be riled up, how they lack mercy and empathy for the people whose life they ruin.

The internet isn't a safe-space. It never was and it never will be. Sooner or later people might draw the wrong kind of attention. The best course of action is to not come out of the closet, at least not on the internet or in some kind of media. Especially when private information are involved. Don't get them tangled up with juicy details about a misunderstood sex-life.

Youtube clearly isn't the problem here, but the herd-mentality of drama-starved, weak minded people, who lurk online for the next scandal. And there will always be people like that.

So, to anyone who feels the total need to "come out": Think twice where and to whom you want to come out.

No argument from me. As much as I want to see change, one way to NOT do it would be sticking your neck out of the pond as it could cost everything. Which is why I am wondering what alternatives are left in order to bring about change. And that's also the beauty of the internet - there's ways to be active without really revealing your identity.

 

[Aluzky]

@Pillar

For those brave enough. And without much to lose (like not having pets or not working with animals) Coming out as a zoo raises awareness and shows that they are not the monsters that people think they are.

For those who have to much to lose, anonymous online activism is the path. Among everyone chipping in a little bit, we can produce change.

 

[Tailo]

Zoos who have neither animal partners nor much contact to animals give a narrow image of zoosexuality though, @Aluzky. It would be as if homosexuality would only be presented to you by people who have no partner and don't work with people of their own gender. Wouldn't that be a bit weird?

I recently saw a feature on zoophilia in which a zoo was interviewed while walking outside with his bitch. Seeing her run around happily and obviously having a great relationship with her human in everyday life made a positive impression on me. Seeing this makes a huge difference compared to just hearing someone claim that his relation to animals would be good, if he had one.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

@CritterFunatic

That's what people said a long while back about gay people. Do not forget that gay sex was a felony in my state right up until Lawrence v. Texas, and it was never really taken off the books because the Supreme Court ruling just says that it can no longer function as an effective "sodomy law." People even within the gay community often said that nobody would ever accept us.

When I was growing up, if you were a gay guy, then you did not even bother with "society" as in the majority of people, but you learned how to hang out at cool sex-positive venues where you could fit in a lot more easily. During the 1980's, my husband used to hang out at goth clubs, and the reason why was that the goths were interesting: the gay bars were actually kind of boring to him. There were also straight people that went to goth clubs, even straight people that hated gay people, but he was not afraid of them. He might have osteoarthritis in his fingers now from punching a few of them in their heads, but he was never afraid of them.

At the time, we did not talk about the whole wide world accepting us. We talked about how venues that did were really cool and artistic, and those that did not really sucked in almost every possible way. We were very judgmental. Homophobes might have been in the majority, but they were still uncouth barely educated pieces of crap. They were barbarians. They were savages. The people that we could do business with and live near without any drama were not, and we respected them. We learned pretty fast where to look. We created our niches and defended them. We established our mecca cities and defended them. We stood up for people that stood up for us.

You choose venues where you can fit in. If there are none, you pick the place where you stand your best chance, and you make your stand. That is not "rose-tinted glasses." That is sound advice for survival.

Survive or not. Make up your mind.

That is one thing that makes me want to punt the Apostles of Cowardice to the moon. They are in a race to the grave. They want to stick their heads in the ground like ostriches and pray that their hearts give out before the murderous witch hunt begins, too bad for the poor fucking Milly that has to be there to try to deal with it.

The Apostles of Cowardice are throwing younger folks to the wolves, and they know it. Fuck them.

For the rest of us, there are areas where we can start turning the tide, not a hundred years from now, not generations away, not in ten years, but in months. There are venues where we already have enough allies to start making a difference. We are already organized enough to start getting something done.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

I am going to also add that even LGBT have not really won over the majority of the human population. We have a perilously narrow majority in some highly civilized western countries. We just recently made progress in India, where it still is tough. We are clinging desperately to the traditional withering indifference of the Chinese and hoping desperately that they don't end up following suit with Russia's highly insane homophobic crackdown for the sake of political convenience. In some parts of Africa, imagine the harshest online anti-zoo hate mob you have ever seen, only in real life, at the hands of large men that can and just might break your bones, and if there is any evidence dredged up against you, it will most likely be exaggerated to justify locking you away longer. In Russia, "gay" equates to "evil child predator" to most people, and would-be activists routinely disappear under mysterious circumstances.

Well, my friend from Pakistan got a really great job as an emergency room doctor in the United States and is studying to get an additional masters degree as a hospital administrator because every masters degree that you have gives you an extra chance at the high priority "do you get to stay in America a while longer, or are you going to get forcibly deported?" lottery that, if you have enough bad luck to lose it, means armed immigration thugs that are convinced that you may as well be a gray alien from outer space for all the empathy they show you. He is working his ass off to stay living in a country where he is relatively safer than he would be in Pakistan.

I do not want to hear any bleak hopelessness. What made things different for us LGBT in some western countries is that we put up a fight. When winning victories at the national level was unrealistic, we fought for victories in the most promising states. When winning victories at the state level was unrealistic, we fought for victories in key cities where we were concentrated. When winning victories in key cities where we were concentrated was unrealistic, we fought for the neighborhoods that mattered the most to us.


There in that video are some people fighting, I am talking hand-to-hand combat fighting, police armed with rubber bullets, cudgels, and water cannons in Taksim Square, recently, and they still amass in Taksim Square every year, in the capital a conservative Muslim dominated country. That is the difference between LGBT crusaders and zoos: they told those that were wailing hopelessness, if they did not want to join the fight, then they could sit down and shut up while someone else that was worth ten times what they were worth, as human beings, did.

If you don't know any zoos that have the fucking guts to go hand-to-hand with armed police, then that's our fucking problem. If you need any further explanation, then I don't know what else to do with you. The Apostles of Cowardice have been busy shaming and isolating anybody that actually does have the guts to make a stand and using us as scapegoats. I recall some of the Apostles of Cowardice defaming people like @Aluzky here, who at minimum has the gonads to stand up for the truth. The people in the zooey community that have got the most balls also have the most lies and bullshit being spread about them, but it's time to start backing up people in our community that have the fucking testicles to make a stand instead of throwing them under the bus. Even if some of them do have checkered past, then let's put those checkered pasts aside long enough to embrace the heroism that they represent today, giving them a chance for redemption.

We zoos let ourselves get bullied by craven old sissy pieces of fucking shit that preach to us about how hopeless it all is, and we let them treat anyone under 45 like shit as they throw us to the wolves with both hands, knowing we'll get torn apart the next time there is another sick witch-hunt. They know they are not going to live long enough to see anything significant get done, and they are fearful of the short-term risks that are involved in fighting for even an inch of progress even in the most bizarre fringe venues.

Let me delineate for you, right now, though, that we have metro areas where us zoos are concentrated. We have enough of us in those places to start putting up a fight against nosy neighbors and goose-stepping police. We have enough of us in those places to quietly swing political campaigns to favor higher education spending over buying more cudgels for goose-stepping police.

We are numerous enough in the furry fandom that we can start tearing down the reputations of anti-zoos in the fandom and get them labeled as crass, toxic, and unwholesome. Believe me, almost all of the anti-zoos in the fandom are crass and bring an ugliness and tackiness to the fandom that is contrary to everything that the fandom represents. We would not even have to point out overtly that they are anti-zooey. We would just have to raise our voices against the tackiness and the ugliness and the tawdriness and the artlessness that they bring with them. We would just have to raise our voices against the fact that they are peddling recycled crap in lieu of art and the fact that they care more about profiting off of gullible and vain fools than they do about art. The anti-zoos are incapable of bringing anything that is genuinely tasteful to the fandom because they are by their very nature tasteless. Us zoos in the fandom only need to open our eyes to the fact that the anti-zoos, besides being anti-zooey, are also tasteless parasites that contribute nothing whatsoever that does anything to enhance us. We don't even have to make it about the fact that they are anti-zooey because, besides that, they bring a sense of seediness to the venue. Half of the motherfuckers bring hard drugs, and they are also contributing to the alcoholism epidemic in the fandom. They are toxic for many reasons besides also being toxic to us. If they are treating us like crap, then I can guarantee that they are treating someone else like crap. This is a battleground where we are numerous enough and well-connected enough to win.

We can start moving the line at our most promising battlegrounds within only a few months.

It is moving the line battleground by battleground that moves the line on the national month by month and year by year.

 

[CritterFunatic]

@CritterFunatic

That's what people said a long while back about gay people. Do not forget that gay sex was a felony in my state right up until Lawrence v. Texas, and it was never really taken off the books because the Supreme Court ruling just says that it can no longer function as an effective "sodomy law." People even within the gay community often said that nobody would ever accept us.

See? I knew this would come up again. Thats why I said this:

And yet, I see people comparing the situation zoophiles are in with the LGBT-movement (which is more than just a stretch), condemning people who chose to remain silent with the death of social movements and who honestly think that they just have to expose the majority of regular people with whatever weird orientation they have to "normalize" it in the eyes of the majority of "normies".

It is not the same situation, it really isn't. And I tell you why. First and foremost, sex with animals is considered a degenerated desire and an outlet, a valve to vent sexual frustration for many outsiders looking upon it. And even, not technically illegal in all parts of the world, is still generally being frowned upon. Here in germany we had a kinda popular call-in-show over the years, moderated by journalist Jürgen Domian. Ever since I had my first encounters with zoos, more than 20 years ago, I encounteres local zoos who had a weird desire to call in to his show and having their coming out as a zoo, even though other zoos did it already and encountered a strong, a very strong opposition to their sexuality. Domian (as he was usually called by his fans) always tried to be as understanding as possible, but when it came to sex with animals, that was just too much for him. He would usually offer the caller to talk with a psychologist on the phone, redirecting the caller before taking the next call.
Now I have to ask:
If zoophilia is the same as LGBT, which he supports, being bisexual himself, then why would he think his callers had to talk to a psychologist? And why would zoos want to call him in the first place, even knowing, that they wouldn't convince him that what they were doing is normal?
I guess zoos want to be accepted socially, although not all of them, as I encountered some who prefer to look down on society like it does on them. This creates the need, the desire for a coming out, the results are usually disastrous.

Let's go back to the LGBT stuff: It's a bunch of sexual orientations and identities aimed at people, at other consenting adults. And even it consenting adults are accepted (generally) look at the exceptions:

If two adult people love each others but they have an age-gap of multiple decades, they are looked down upon by others.
The older party should get a partner their age, it would be scandalous to love and have sex with someone way younger then oneself.
The younger party would just try to abuse the older party, trying to get an inheritance out of them.
Even if its totally legal, this kind of love isn't universally accepted.

How about incestuous people? Even the word itself can be translated into "blutschänderisch" in german, which would mean "blood disgrace". The religious roots are clearly visible.
Even in this case we would have to consenting adults, maybe even with the forsight not to get kids together (because of the genetical risk factors), and even a relationship like that, without producing sick children is frowned upon.
Incestuous relationships are regarded as disgusting by the major population.

And in some cases even LGBT relationships have to shield themself against attacks, even in this day and age.
Society has still a long way to go to accept less usual relationships between consenting adults.

And you really think, having relationships with non-humans who can't consent to anything (because consent is a human concept (meaning you can only consent to something if you know what consenting is and what kinds of ramifications the consent brings)). And you know fully well, that most people see in sex with a not consenting living thing just one thing: rape.
And to be fair, in some cases it kinda applies. Even in this forum some people just ask to meet up others for animal-sex. You can be quite sure that they don't build up a loving relationship to the animal in question first, before the sex starts. And in 20 years exposure to different zoophile groups on the web even I struggle at times to accept zoos, at least in cases where there were too many black sheep to stomach those groups. So I can fully well see how much trouble an outsider would have to accept zoophilia as something "normal".

You basically expect people who still struggle to accept all the weird ways of human/human relationships to just accept human/animal relationships.

Don't get me wrong I'd want to live in a more open and accepting society as well. I just don't have any illusions about it. Societal change takes time, sometimes entire generations. I'm quite certain though, no matter how good the intentions are, just running around declaring oneself a zoophile will get you the wrong kind of attention.

@CritterFunatic
When I was growing up, if you were a gay guy, then you did not even bother with "society" as in the majority of people, but you learned how to hang out at cool sex-positive venues where you could fit in a lot more easily.

I didn't either, as I was mostly into animals back then, which I realized was something weird, not accepted and kinda rare. Then again, I was into male animals and if I had a slight interest into humans, they had to be male as well. Of course, I am also a male.

Just take a look at this:

German 'gay' paragraph abolished 25 years ago – DW – 06/11/2019

When Paragraph 175 of the German Penal Code was abolished 25 years ago, homosexuality ceased to be separately regulated. DW takes a look back at a history of persecution in West and East Germany.

www.dw.com

I didn't even knew this was a thing back then. And I would probably didn't care about that anyway. Still, it might have had an impact about my openness, if I had known. Luckily I didn't though.

 

[caikgoch]

I have 1 question for every German that says "Gay" isn't "considered a degenerated desire and an outlet, a valve to vent sexual frustration": What happened to gay people 80 years ago?

 

[Bigpaws_Bear]

I have 1 question for every German that says "Gay" isn't "considered a degenerated desire and an outlet, a valve to vent sexual frustration": What happened to gay people 80 years ago?

they imploded.

 

[BlueBeard]

I am going to also add that even LGBT have not really won over the majority of the human population. We have a perilously narrow majority in some highly civilized western countries. We just recently made progress in India, where it still is tough. We are clinging desperately to the traditional withering indifference of the Chinese and hoping desperately that they don't end up following suit with Russia's highly insane homophobic crackdown for the sake of political convenience. In some parts of Africa, imagine the harshest online anti-zoo hate mob you have ever seen, only in real life, at the hands of large men that can and just might break your bones, and if there is any evidence dredged up against you, it will most likely be exaggerated to justify locking you away longer. In Russia, "gay" equates to "evil child predator" to most people, and would-be activists routinely disappear under mysterious circumstances.

Well, my friend from Pakistan got a really great job as an emergency room doctor in the United States and is studying to get an additional masters degree as a hospital administrator because every masters degree that you have gives you an extra chance at the high priority "do you get to stay in America a while longer, or are you going to get forcibly deported?" lottery that, if you have enough bad luck to lose it, means armed immigration thugs that are convinced that you may as well be a gray alien from outer space for all the empathy they show you. He is working his ass off to stay living in a country where he is relatively safer than he would be in Pakistan.

I do not want to hear any bleak hopelessness. What made things different for us LGBT in some western countries is that we put up a fight. When winning victories at the national level was unrealistic, we fought for victories in the most promising states. When winning victories at the state level was unrealistic, we fought for victories in key cities where we were concentrated. When winning victories in key cities where we were concentrated was unrealistic, we fought for the neighborhoods that mattered the most to us.


There in that video are some people fighting, I am talking hand-to-hand combat fighting, police armed with rubber bullets, cudgels, and water cannons in Taksim Square, recently, and they still amass in Taksim Square every year, in the capital a conservative Muslim dominated country. That is the difference between LGBT crusaders and zoos: they told those that were wailing hopelessness, if they did not want to join the fight, then they could sit down and shut up while someone else that was worth ten times what they were worth, as human beings, did.

If you don't know any zoos that have the fucking guts to go hand-to-hand with armed police, then that's our fucking problem. If you need any further explanation, then I don't know what else to do with you. The Apostles of Cowardice have been busy shaming and isolating anybody that actually does have the guts to make a stand and using us as scapegoats. I recall some of the Apostles of Cowardice defaming people like @Aluzky here, who at minimum has the gonads to stand up for the truth. The people in the zooey community that have got the most balls also have the most lies and bullshit being spread about them, but it's time to start backing up people in our community that have the fucking testicles to make a stand instead of throwing them under the bus. Even if some of them do have checkered past, then let's put those checkered pasts aside long enough to embrace the heroism that they represent today, giving them a chance for redemption.

We zoos let ourselves get bullied by craven old sissy pieces of fucking shit that preach to us about how hopeless it all is, and we let them treat anyone under 45 like shit as they throw us to the wolves with both hands, knowing we'll get torn apart the next time there is another sick witch-hunt. They know they are not going to live long enough to see anything significant get done, and they are fearful of the short-term risks that are involved in fighting for even an inch of progress even in the most bizarre fringe venues.

Let me delineate for you, right now, though, that we have metro areas where us zoos are concentrated. We have enough of us in those places to start putting up a fight against nosy neighbors and goose-stepping police. We have enough of us in those places to quietly swing political campaigns to favor higher education spending over buying more cudgels for goose-stepping police.

We are numerous enough in the furry fandom that we can start tearing down the reputations of anti-zoos in the fandom and get them labeled as crass, toxic, and unwholesome. Believe me, almost all of the anti-zoos in the fandom are crass and bring an ugliness and tackiness to the fandom that is contrary to everything that the fandom represents. We would not even have to point out overtly that they are anti-zooey. We would just have to raise our voices against the tackiness and the ugliness and the tawdriness and the artlessness that they bring with them. We would just have to raise our voices against the fact that they are peddling recycled crap in lieu of art and the fact that they care more about profiting off of gullible and vain fools than they do about art. The anti-zoos are incapable of bringing anything that is genuinely tasteful to the fandom because they are by their very nature tasteless. Us zoos in the fandom only need to open our eyes to the fact that the anti-zoos, besides being anti-zooey, are also tasteless parasites that contribute nothing whatsoever that does anything to enhance us. We don't even have to make it about the fact that they are anti-zooey because, besides that, they bring a sense of seediness to the venue. Half of the motherfuckers bring hard drugs, and they are also contributing to the alcoholism epidemic in the fandom. They are toxic for many reasons besides also being toxic to us. If they are treating us like crap, then I can guarantee that they are treating someone else like crap. This is a battleground where we are numerous enough and well-connected enough to win.

We can start moving the line at our most promising battlegrounds within only a few months.

It is moving the line battleground by battleground that moves the line on the national month by month and year by year.

Solidary, man. My wife and I have taken our share of hits for this cause and for others. We no longer give a shit about the opinion of others. And that... alone... is liberty. Feels good.

 

[SigmaTheZeta]

It is not the same situation...

The way that people work is the same. The way that you survive as a downtrodden minority is the same. The laws of gravity work the same for everybody. The conservation of matter and energy are the same for everybody. You do not live by a special set of rules that enable you to survive effectively by keeping your head buried in the sand like an ostrich when it clearly does not actually work for anybody else, not African-Americans, not Jews, not Muslims, certainly not Freemasons, not gay people, not anybody. Stop pretending you are special. Stop pretending that, as a pet-fucker, you have special privilege to live your life effectively as a hermit when nobody else is allowed to. It does not work, and it will never work.

Furthermore, you come across to me like the unending succession of zoos that I have run into that are under some sort of delusion that the gay rights movement was one big victory march that was received with confetti and hugs from day one. It was not. The first known gay rights organization started in the mid-1920's was a disaster that ended in the man that started it getting arrested.

After that disaster, a lot of people like you came out of the woodwork, swearing loudly to everybody that that failure was evidence that trying to organize the gay community could not be done and should not be done. There were actual gay people that bullied and abused and shunned and sometimes deliberately destroyed any gay people that talked about doing anything productive to change their situation. For more than a generation, they were successful. Over the course of the Great Depression, the gay community was run as far underground as they had ever been since the time of Julius Caesar.

People like you believed, from the very bottoms of their hearts, truly believed then that the gay community could go on existing forever as a secretive underground subculture that met secretly in underground dives and parks and public bathrooms. They believed that they could have a parallel society that didn't have to interact with straight people at all. For a little bit more than a generation, times were good. There was plenty of booze, there were plenty of handsome men, and nobody, as far as they knew, suspected a thing.

However, the ones that they could not control and keep silent and under their thumbs were the worst ones. Children would disappear under mysterious circumstances. Sometimes, their dead corpses were found floating in rivers or half-buried in fields. Other times, they were found suffering from liver failure in seedy underground dives and sometimes dressed as women. Besides child sexual predators, people would occasionally run across gay men having sex in public bathrooms that they apparently believed, however incorrectly, were "gay places," in spite of the fact that other people also used them: "glory holes" came out of this practice. People would also find their graffiti in those places. On other occasions, they would run into people on public beaches or in public parks, usually unbelievably drunk.

Their behavior was, in the most benign and silly cases (the more dangerous predators were just mentally ill), fueled by their lack of integration into the accepted norms of mainstream society, and because of their lack of integration into mainstream society, they developed a suite of behavioral norms that were often directly in conflict with mainstream society. Their idea of creating a parallel state separated from the "normies" had a serious problem in the fact that, when you create a parallel state, you still occupy the same spaces as the rest of society.

The resulting violence against gay people that ultimately erupted was one of the worst rashes of violence against gay people in history, and it was the sheer violence of it all that drove the formation of organizations like the Mattachine Society and subsequent organizations that grew up from out of the hardship that had resulted from that insane witch-hunt.

Furthermore, gay people getting on-board with the sheer excess of the Sexual Revolution was arguably one of the worst dumpster-fires ever, and it most likely contributed to the AIDS epidemic that struck them so badly, during the 1980's, that for a while, it was called "GRID," or "Gay Related Immune Deficiency." When it became obvious that it was spreading also to straight people, they became scapegoats, and this triggered yet another rash of violence. That was the time when my husband got many of his injuries that contributed to the osteoarthritis that he suffers from at this point in his life. He was in the protests against funding being denied for AIDS research, and there was sometimes bare-knuckles street-fighting involved. While his name was never widely known, he worked with many who were considerably better known, such as Andy Warhol, one of the leaders of the LGBT artistic movement.

I bet you think that the LGBT rights movement was one big cakewalk, but it was not. They made many mistakes, and one of the worst was sticking their heads in the ground and attempting to create some stupid parallel society.

Like I have said many times, I prefer mixed zooey and non-zooey social venues for most of my non-activist socializing. I am a furry first and a zoo third. I am a gay man second, actually. I will not stay in the closet in any community, including the furry community, where I stand a reasonable chance of being left mostly in peace. Those venues where I do feel secure are ones that I can maintain starting right now, by staying out of the closet and keeping up good relations with the leadership. My friends in the furry community know that I am a zoo, and I am out as one. I am not about to change that fact. Anybody that messes with me on my turf will find that I am more experienced than they are and hideously vindictive.

I am out, and while I can only be out at certain specialized venues, for now, I have moved the line over the course of my lifetime. I intend to take part in moving it still further.

The idea of amputating the zooey community from the rest of the human society already has people talking about dumb ideas like "hidden zoo farms." Wait, that already happened. That kind of behavior was what started the current witch-hunt, that and animal brothels and other malfeasance, to begin with. The lack of feedback between zoos and the rest of society is just going to produce the same cultural inbreeding that happened to the gay community, and the concomitant dysfunctions are just going to get worse.

The segregation just produces cultural inbreeding that benefits nobody, not us, not the "normies."

You do not live in a special world where you don't really have to follow the same rules as other downtrodden minorities. Stop believing that you do because it could get either you or someone else killed.

 

[CritterFunatic]

I have 1 question for every German that says "Gay" isn't "considered a degenerated desire and an outlet, a valve to vent sexual frustration": What happened to gay people 80 years ago?

Bad things. And that is a valid point. You see how long it took to get to our level of understanding and empathy for something we now consider quite normal. Sex with animals is something that will take a lot of time to get generally accepted as well, if it happens at all. The topic of sex with animals is still a way harder bit to swallow than the topic of sex between same gendered people.

The way that people work is the same.

Kinda. Of course the absence of acceptance feels the same for people whos lifestyle will be rejected. Still, there are reasons for some of those rejections and I for one can't close my eyes in front of them anymore, pretending that they don't exist because they might hurt "my cause". And I think those reasons need to be addressed before any kind of social movement could intend to ever take off.

One of the reasons is people fear the unknown, the incomprehensible and the uncomfortable. People with exotic fetishes or sexual orientations might trigger this fear. And sometimes even for good reason.

There was a person in my city more than a decade ago who apparently had fun torturing and mutilating genitals of horses. They would just enter fields and pastures in the evening and stab mares into the vagina or stab stallions into the testicles and the sheath. How they were able to do that without creating too much noise and getting caught nobody knew. Usually the animals were found dead the other morning. That raised a fear for many animal owners that their animal might be the next. So they invested into better surveillance equipment. I can't remember if they ever found that person or not. And it doesn't matter for this story, because another point becomes important: paranoia.

People were quite paranoid for a long while and when no more stabbings happened people became calmer again. Still, anyone found trespassing made it to the news, because they could be sadist or another one like them. And even to this day the paranoia is there.

One or two years ago an old man around his 70s made it into the papers. He was found in a stable fucking a horse. According to the news the mare was diagnosed with some nasty disease of her vagina and her uterus which was blamed on the old guy fucking the horse. I highly doubt that the infection had something to do with him fucking the animal, but still, people were outraged and quick to judge that the man was simply senile and needed to live under constant surveillance.

Now, as a layman, try to argue with the public that you think that the infection had nothing to do with him, if it was even real. Now try to argue that sex with animals is an unalienable human right and that the man did nothing wrong, even if he was trespassing. Try to argue that apart from the trespassing anything that happened was okay and no, you don't just say that because you are biased in any way, believing that sex with animals should be publicly recognized as something "normal".

Of course I feel with the man, but only because of his sexual interest in animals, not because of him trespassing.

And yet, people, even in this forum, ask what we all think about "fencehopping" as if anything good might result from that. The old man did just that, fencehopping, and by getting caught, again, made it way more difficult to argue in benefit of sexuality with animals.

As long as people see fencehopping as a trivial offense, nothing good will come from it. Exposure to a community supporting this line of thinking will destroy any endeavor to appeal to the society.

And that's just one point. How about another one? How about people looking for a quick fuck? Zoos are all about feelings and romantically inclined relationships, calling "bestiality" a term coined by the porn industry, while in reality people use communities as ours regularly just to get into contact with likeminded people to find a quick fuck, no emotions attached.

Last but not least I read the same argument about an unpopular paraphilia that is comparable with the fight of the LGBT community for their rights. He also challenged contemporary social norms arguing that ancient greece saw the whole situation differently than todays society and argued that this was proof of shifting morals and if they shift in one way, they might shift into the opposite direction as well. He was certain that exposure to his cause would work in his favor. So far it seems that some people here seem to think exactly the same about zoophilia. Now let's tell you what this was about: That one argument came from a pedophile at the inkbunny art gallery. He argued in absolutely the same way about his agenda. He was even that certain that his cause was just, that he changed his name into "pedophile" something something. I predict he won't stay long on that platform the way he cried for attention. Oh, he also said he didn't care anymore what others think, oddly enough he still loved to argue with critics of his view, coming up with many flawed arguments for his cause.

Then I see zoos arguing in absolutely the same way about zoophilia, but openly shunning pedophilia, thinking that this was even below them, although the pedophile from inkbunny made the same basic arguments about his paraphilia as the zoos do.

For me this was one of many eye opening moments showing me how easy it is to argue for a cause that you believe in as opposed to arguing in a way outsiders might actually understand. Even if stances like "I don't care anymore what others think" come into the mix.

This just shows people are stuck in a specific way to think, stubborn, unwilling to challenge their own views and coming up with valid reasons why their style of life is not harmful to the public. And then people are surprised if the public hunts them down, unable to understand where their opinions actually come from. I think the worst is comparing zoophilia with the LGBT community and their fights, as their struggles might seem familiar, but are entirely different ones.

Zoophilia came from an entirely different direction and zoophiles (me included) will have a very hard time to convince the public of anything when we are blind to the flaws in our own ranks we so easily just seem to overlook and accept.

 

[Tailo]

There was a person in my city more than a decade ago who apparently had fun torturing and mutilating genitals of horses. They would just enter fields and pastures in the evening and stab mares into the vagina or stab stallions into the testicles and the sheath. How they were able to do that without creating too much noise and getting caught nobody knew. Usually the animals were found dead the other morning. That raised a fear for many animal owners that their animal might be the next. So they invested into better surveillance equipment. I can't remember if they ever found that person or not. And it doesn't matter for this story, because another point becomes important: paranoia.

People were quite paranoid for a long while and when no more stabbings happened people became calmer again. Still, anyone found trespassing made it to the news, because they could be sadist or another one like them. And even to this day the paranoia is there.

I think that this story supports the point @SigmatoZeta was making. If zoos act secretive like psychopaths who mutilate and kill animals, it's easy for people to confuse them. It's easy to confuse gay people with child abusers if you know hardly anything about them except that they hide in the same dark corners.

One or two years ago an old man around his 70s made it into the papers. He was found in a stable fucking a horse. According to the news the mare was diagnosed with some nasty disease of her vagina and her uterus which was blamed on the old guy fucking the horse. I highly doubt that the infection had something to do with him fucking the animal, but still, people were outraged and quick to judge that the man was simply senile and needed to live under constant surveillance.

Now, as a layman, try to argue with the public that you think that the infection had nothing to do with him, if it was even real. Now try to argue that sex with animals is an unalienable human right and that the man did nothing wrong, even if he was trespassing. Try to argue that apart from the trespassing anything that happened was okay and no, you don't just say that because you are biased in any way, believing that sex with animals should be publicly recognized as something "normal".

Of course I feel with the man, but only because of his sexual interest in animals, not because of him trespassing.

And yet, people, even in this forum, ask what we all think about "fencehopping" as if anything good might result from that. The old man did just that, fencehopping, and by getting caught, again, made it way more difficult to argue in benefit of sexuality with animals.

As long as people see fencehopping as a trivial offense, nothing good will come from it. Exposure to a community supporting this line of thinking will destroy any endeavor to appeal to the society.

Speak up against fence hopping then. Trespassing is wrong. I agree that this situation would be a bad time to start informing people about zoosexuality. But I think you are again supporting @SigmatoZeta's point here. If decent zooey people are invisible, the trespassers getting caught on other people's property will be how people see zoos.

And that's just one point. How about another one? How about people looking for a quick fuck? Zoos are all about feelings and romantically inclined relationships, calling "bestiality" a term coined by the porn industry, while in reality people use communities as ours regularly just to get into contact with likeminded people to find a quick fuck, no emotions attached.

People just looking for a fuck in the zoo community are a reality just like heterosexuals and homosexuals looking for quick fucks. That's what the business model of many companies offering "dating" apps and websites is based on today. I think we should acknowledge that truth. By the way, I suspect that my dog would have liked casual sex, too. He wasn't shy to check whether bitches he just met would be receptive. He also tried with a few humans.

Everybody is free to speak up against casual sex, if he's inclined to do so. It's no reason for zoos to hide, though.

Last but not least I read the same argument about an unpopular paraphilia that is comparable with the fight of the LGBT community for their rights. He also challenged contemporary social norms arguing that ancient greece saw the whole situation differently than todays society and argued that this was proof of shifting morals and if they shift in one way, they might shift into the opposite direction as well. He was certain that exposure to his cause would work in his favor. So far it seems that some people here seem to think exactly the same about zoophilia.

I don't think that someone else using similar arguments for something else we may not agree with invalidates the arguments per se.