Equinophile
Tourist
So I'm seeing 80% of antis claim that consent is the main factor that makes any sexual contact with an animal wrong. So I figured I'd write a detailed essay explaining it to help any of you who get stuck on this issue with someone in discussion.
Warning: Basically an essay. Very long.
TLDR: Animals can consent to some things, this includes sex. If the animal freely consents, and is not harmed in the process of sex, it is not abusive or morally wrong.
Hey, I hope your day is great and you and your loved ones are healthy! So I was convinced of this view by the Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University and a Laureate Professor at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at the University of Melbourne, various psychologists, psychiatrists, zoologists, ethologists, biologists, and zoophiles that practice bestiality themselves.
As many different people will have slightly altered variations on the definitions of key words used here, I will provide the definitions I am using to avoid semantic undertows in conversation. I am operating on The Harm Principle, as illustrated by John Stuart Mill. "The harm principle holds that the actions of individuals should only be limited to prevent harm to other individuals." Also I am operating under a consequentialist view of morality for this.
Moral act: A behaviour that is intended to produce a good outcome, moreso than it produces a bad outcome.
Good: A wanted or desired thing.
Bad: An unwanted or undesired thing.
Consent: Permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.
Informed Consent: Permission granted in the knowledge of the possible consequences, typically that which is given by a patient to a doctor for treatment with full knowledge of the possible risks and benefits.
Sexual Consent: Sexual consent, at the base level, is communicating agreement to have sex. ... It's more than just saying “yes.” For someone to be able to give voluntary informed consent to sex, they must be of legal age to have sex, they must not be coerced into agreeing, and they must be conscious.
Coercion: The practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
Rape: Unlawful sexual activity that is usually carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception.
Abuse: Treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly.
Okay, now I'm going to take a page from Planned Parenthood's guideline to ethical sex since I think they have the most extensive and accurate checklist.
"Sexual consent is an agreement to participate in a sexual activity. Before being sexual with someone, you need to know if they want to be sexual with you too. It’s also important to be honest with your partner about what you want and don’t want.
Consenting and asking for consent are all about setting your personal boundaries and respecting those of your partner — and checking in if things aren’t clear. Both people must agree to sex — every single time — for it to be consensual.
Without consent, sexual activity (including oral sex, genital touching, and vaginal or anal penetration) is sexual assault or rape.
Consent is easy as FRIES:
Freely given. Consenting is a choice you make without pressure, manipulation, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
Reversible. Anyone can change their mind about what they feel like doing, anytime. Even if you’ve done it before, and even if you’re both naked in bed.
Informed. You can only consent to something if you have the full story. For example, if someone says they’ll use a condom and then they don’t, there isn’t full consent.
Enthusiastic. When it comes to sex, you should only do stuff you WANT to do, not things that you feel you’re expected to do.
Specific. Saying yes to one thing (like going to the bedroom to make out) doesn’t mean you’ve said yes to others (like having sex).
Under no circumstances is silence considered consent. A sexual partner must give verbal consent, or body language must explicitly indicate consent. You must be careful when relying on physical cues, especially if alcohol is involved, as these non-verbal cues could be incorrectly interpreted."
Now with all of these boundaries laid out, I will explore the wide range of sexual activity between species and plot markers of where each instance resides in the spectrum of abuse and mutually beneficial sex. Thank you for sticking through all of this boring set up.
So for animals to have ethical sex, they need to be able to consent freely to the activity. To consent is to give permission that is F.R.I.E.S. compatible for participation in the activity.
1st, can animals Freely Give? This is easily demonstrable by any pet owner or zoologist. If your dog knows what "park" and "vet" mean, when you say you are going to the park and your dog jumps into the car excitedly then he is freely giving consent to go to the park. However if you say you are going to the vet and he refuses to jump in the car, and instead tries to go inside the house, he is not giving free consent. Same thing if you lie to the dog and say you are going to the park, when you are actually going to the vet. There are countless examples of animals freely giving their consent in all manner of activities that aren't sexual, so why would they be unable to freely give consent to sex? The possibilities are that they are either tied or held down, drugged, trained, or lied to about the sexual activity. Barring these, consent can be freely given in many sitiations, sex included.
2nd, can animals Reverse their decision? The answer is again, yes. And it is also an obvious behaviour seen by pet owners and zoologists. Have you ever seen a dog wade into a river until it got to a certain depth, and then they turned around when uncomfortable? Or how about when they initiate play with another dog, but then wish to stop before their playmate does? Sometimes when a male and female animal mate, if the male is too clumsy or takes too long, the female will rescind her offer for sex at that time. As long as the animal is free to walk away, is not drugged, and was not behaviorally conditioned to sex because they expect a food reward (or physical punishment), then it is a reversible decision.
3rd, can animals be Informed enough for sex? This one is tricky for people, because being informed means something else to humans than it does to nonhumans in many circumstances. And humans have a bad habit of applying their own rules and standards on things that might not benefit from those same rules. We also make intelligence anthropocentric, saying that a dog has the intelligence of a 2 year old child, for instance. This equates dogs to 2 year old children in every way in many people's minds. But research has shown that various animals surpass humans in certain cognitive tasks. In one task a reward was hidden under one of two buckets. The experimenter then indicated the location of the reward by tapping the bucket, pointing to the bucket, nodding at the bucket, or simply looking at the bucket. The dogs followed these signals, performing better than chimpanzees, wolves, and human infants at this task; even puppies with limited exposure to humans performed well. Chimps have a far superior short term memory. Horses are just as good, if not better at reading human body language as adult humans are. Different animals have different intelligences bases on their environmental needs, and evolution. Comparing different species to a General Intelligence standard in humans is not an accurate portrayal of animal intelligence or their inner experience.
Can animals rape one another? If you answered yes to this, then that logically implies they must be able to do the opposite, which is consent to sex with one another. The definition of rape involves doing something without consent. For something to be rape, consent must be possible at some point for the victim in question. Animals do a thing called mate selection (in most species, it is the females that select. Males often go for whatever they can get, as is observable in the sexual desperation of many human males.) They make their selection of a mate based on his reproductive fitness, and their individually desired traits. One mare may be more likely to mate with a strong and dominant stallion, while another will choose a stallion that is kind to her even if he is less dominant and strong. For any animal, humans included, being informed means knowing about all of the things that could affect you that you care about. If I tell you to not tell me how many partners you've previously had because I don't care, then it is not a violation of informed consent. Similarly, animals will not always care about the same things we do such as how sex affects social standing, religious laws, or taboos. The animal cares about if you are a suitable partner for them, and if they experience pleasure during the act. If both of these are fulfilled, then the animal is informed as much as it could be and wants to be.
4th, do animals show Enthusiasm? Surprise, my answer is yes. Animals show enthusiasm inside and outside of sex with members of their own species. They enthusiastically play, groom, and cuddle one another. They also do this with humans. Animals can display enthusiasm to mating (ever see a breeding stallion around mares in heat? What is that if not enthusiasm? Even females can be enthusiastic and initiate sex instead of the male. Sometimes if a male lion is distracted or disinterested, the lioness may use oral stimulation, or even begin to mount the male and hump him in order to persuade him to have sex.) There seems to be no logical reason why some animals wouldn't find humans acceptable mating partners, and be enthusiastic (especially if they've had positive sexual experiences with either humans or nonhumans). Indeed it is not uncommon for dogs, horses, cats, cattle, pigs, goats, ostriches, dolphins, chimps, bonobos, and even parrots to display mating rituals toward some humans. The presence of a clitoris in all female mammals, and the sex mechanisms and reward circuits in the brain being the same in mammals leaves little room for argument against mammals enjoying sex intrinsically in some capacity.
5th, can animals be specific? Once again, yes much to your surprise, I'm sure. If you have ever pet a cat, you know that if you pet for too long or if you pet the wrong spot then you will be attacked by fuzzy sheathed blades of death. That cat has specifically consented to having its back scratched, but not its belly. If a dog wants to play fetch instead of wrestling, he will not engage in the play fighting and will instead bring the ball. Animals also have the ability to be specific about sex. A mare may enjoy oral stimulation from a stallion while she's in pre-estrus, but may not tolerate him mounting. That is her being specific about what she wants.
That's the brunt of it. There are other supporting reasons, but I'll address those in the comments if they come up. Congratulations on making it this far through a boring as hell essay, but I'm eagerly awaiting your responses!!
Warning: Basically an essay. Very long.
TLDR: Animals can consent to some things, this includes sex. If the animal freely consents, and is not harmed in the process of sex, it is not abusive or morally wrong.
Hey, I hope your day is great and you and your loved ones are healthy! So I was convinced of this view by the Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University and a Laureate Professor at the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at the University of Melbourne, various psychologists, psychiatrists, zoologists, ethologists, biologists, and zoophiles that practice bestiality themselves.
As many different people will have slightly altered variations on the definitions of key words used here, I will provide the definitions I am using to avoid semantic undertows in conversation. I am operating on The Harm Principle, as illustrated by John Stuart Mill. "The harm principle holds that the actions of individuals should only be limited to prevent harm to other individuals." Also I am operating under a consequentialist view of morality for this.
Moral act: A behaviour that is intended to produce a good outcome, moreso than it produces a bad outcome.
Good: A wanted or desired thing.
Bad: An unwanted or undesired thing.
Consent: Permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.
Informed Consent: Permission granted in the knowledge of the possible consequences, typically that which is given by a patient to a doctor for treatment with full knowledge of the possible risks and benefits.
Sexual Consent: Sexual consent, at the base level, is communicating agreement to have sex. ... It's more than just saying “yes.” For someone to be able to give voluntary informed consent to sex, they must be of legal age to have sex, they must not be coerced into agreeing, and they must be conscious.
Coercion: The practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
Rape: Unlawful sexual activity that is usually carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception.
Abuse: Treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly.
Okay, now I'm going to take a page from Planned Parenthood's guideline to ethical sex since I think they have the most extensive and accurate checklist.
"Sexual consent is an agreement to participate in a sexual activity. Before being sexual with someone, you need to know if they want to be sexual with you too. It’s also important to be honest with your partner about what you want and don’t want.
Consenting and asking for consent are all about setting your personal boundaries and respecting those of your partner — and checking in if things aren’t clear. Both people must agree to sex — every single time — for it to be consensual.
Without consent, sexual activity (including oral sex, genital touching, and vaginal or anal penetration) is sexual assault or rape.
Consent is easy as FRIES:
Freely given. Consenting is a choice you make without pressure, manipulation, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
Reversible. Anyone can change their mind about what they feel like doing, anytime. Even if you’ve done it before, and even if you’re both naked in bed.
Informed. You can only consent to something if you have the full story. For example, if someone says they’ll use a condom and then they don’t, there isn’t full consent.
Enthusiastic. When it comes to sex, you should only do stuff you WANT to do, not things that you feel you’re expected to do.
Specific. Saying yes to one thing (like going to the bedroom to make out) doesn’t mean you’ve said yes to others (like having sex).
Under no circumstances is silence considered consent. A sexual partner must give verbal consent, or body language must explicitly indicate consent. You must be careful when relying on physical cues, especially if alcohol is involved, as these non-verbal cues could be incorrectly interpreted."
Now with all of these boundaries laid out, I will explore the wide range of sexual activity between species and plot markers of where each instance resides in the spectrum of abuse and mutually beneficial sex. Thank you for sticking through all of this boring set up.
So for animals to have ethical sex, they need to be able to consent freely to the activity. To consent is to give permission that is F.R.I.E.S. compatible for participation in the activity.
1st, can animals Freely Give? This is easily demonstrable by any pet owner or zoologist. If your dog knows what "park" and "vet" mean, when you say you are going to the park and your dog jumps into the car excitedly then he is freely giving consent to go to the park. However if you say you are going to the vet and he refuses to jump in the car, and instead tries to go inside the house, he is not giving free consent. Same thing if you lie to the dog and say you are going to the park, when you are actually going to the vet. There are countless examples of animals freely giving their consent in all manner of activities that aren't sexual, so why would they be unable to freely give consent to sex? The possibilities are that they are either tied or held down, drugged, trained, or lied to about the sexual activity. Barring these, consent can be freely given in many sitiations, sex included.
2nd, can animals Reverse their decision? The answer is again, yes. And it is also an obvious behaviour seen by pet owners and zoologists. Have you ever seen a dog wade into a river until it got to a certain depth, and then they turned around when uncomfortable? Or how about when they initiate play with another dog, but then wish to stop before their playmate does? Sometimes when a male and female animal mate, if the male is too clumsy or takes too long, the female will rescind her offer for sex at that time. As long as the animal is free to walk away, is not drugged, and was not behaviorally conditioned to sex because they expect a food reward (or physical punishment), then it is a reversible decision.
3rd, can animals be Informed enough for sex? This one is tricky for people, because being informed means something else to humans than it does to nonhumans in many circumstances. And humans have a bad habit of applying their own rules and standards on things that might not benefit from those same rules. We also make intelligence anthropocentric, saying that a dog has the intelligence of a 2 year old child, for instance. This equates dogs to 2 year old children in every way in many people's minds. But research has shown that various animals surpass humans in certain cognitive tasks. In one task a reward was hidden under one of two buckets. The experimenter then indicated the location of the reward by tapping the bucket, pointing to the bucket, nodding at the bucket, or simply looking at the bucket. The dogs followed these signals, performing better than chimpanzees, wolves, and human infants at this task; even puppies with limited exposure to humans performed well. Chimps have a far superior short term memory. Horses are just as good, if not better at reading human body language as adult humans are. Different animals have different intelligences bases on their environmental needs, and evolution. Comparing different species to a General Intelligence standard in humans is not an accurate portrayal of animal intelligence or their inner experience.
Can animals rape one another? If you answered yes to this, then that logically implies they must be able to do the opposite, which is consent to sex with one another. The definition of rape involves doing something without consent. For something to be rape, consent must be possible at some point for the victim in question. Animals do a thing called mate selection (in most species, it is the females that select. Males often go for whatever they can get, as is observable in the sexual desperation of many human males.) They make their selection of a mate based on his reproductive fitness, and their individually desired traits. One mare may be more likely to mate with a strong and dominant stallion, while another will choose a stallion that is kind to her even if he is less dominant and strong. For any animal, humans included, being informed means knowing about all of the things that could affect you that you care about. If I tell you to not tell me how many partners you've previously had because I don't care, then it is not a violation of informed consent. Similarly, animals will not always care about the same things we do such as how sex affects social standing, religious laws, or taboos. The animal cares about if you are a suitable partner for them, and if they experience pleasure during the act. If both of these are fulfilled, then the animal is informed as much as it could be and wants to be.
4th, do animals show Enthusiasm? Surprise, my answer is yes. Animals show enthusiasm inside and outside of sex with members of their own species. They enthusiastically play, groom, and cuddle one another. They also do this with humans. Animals can display enthusiasm to mating (ever see a breeding stallion around mares in heat? What is that if not enthusiasm? Even females can be enthusiastic and initiate sex instead of the male. Sometimes if a male lion is distracted or disinterested, the lioness may use oral stimulation, or even begin to mount the male and hump him in order to persuade him to have sex.) There seems to be no logical reason why some animals wouldn't find humans acceptable mating partners, and be enthusiastic (especially if they've had positive sexual experiences with either humans or nonhumans). Indeed it is not uncommon for dogs, horses, cats, cattle, pigs, goats, ostriches, dolphins, chimps, bonobos, and even parrots to display mating rituals toward some humans. The presence of a clitoris in all female mammals, and the sex mechanisms and reward circuits in the brain being the same in mammals leaves little room for argument against mammals enjoying sex intrinsically in some capacity.
5th, can animals be specific? Once again, yes much to your surprise, I'm sure. If you have ever pet a cat, you know that if you pet for too long or if you pet the wrong spot then you will be attacked by fuzzy sheathed blades of death. That cat has specifically consented to having its back scratched, but not its belly. If a dog wants to play fetch instead of wrestling, he will not engage in the play fighting and will instead bring the ball. Animals also have the ability to be specific about sex. A mare may enjoy oral stimulation from a stallion while she's in pre-estrus, but may not tolerate him mounting. That is her being specific about what she wants.
That's the brunt of it. There are other supporting reasons, but I'll address those in the comments if they come up. Congratulations on making it this far through a boring as hell essay, but I'm eagerly awaiting your responses!!
